Putting your Ego On a Plate (and Eating it): Ukonwa Ojo’s Audacity To Trade Corporate Fame for Purpose 🇳🇬

Lola

00:03 - 00:36

Hey there, welcome back to the Kadara Woman podcast. I am your host, Lola Soyebo Harris, and I am absolutely thrilled that you're joining us again for season two's premiere. We're doing something special today. This is our very first video podcast episode. I know it's a little daunting, but we did it. And we just wanted to put a face to one of the amazing voices. So please be sure to watch this on our YouTube channel as well. Alright, so today I'm sitting down with someone who's not just a guest, but a dear friend of almost two decades, Okonwa Ojo.

Lola

00:36 - 01:16

From growing up in Nigeria to becoming a multiple award-winning powerhouse marketing executive at brands like Amazon Prime, MAC Cosmetics, CoverGirl, Ukonwa's story is one you wouldn't want to miss. We get real about what it's like to be the only one in the room, the moment she decided to walk away from the pinnacle of corporate success to follow her purpose. You guys, that is, that story in itself is just, it's just amazing. And how she now is building multiple businesses that align with her deepest values. This conversation is so full of those, oh, I needed to hear that, that, you know, that head nod that you do when you just hear something that resonates.

Lola

01:17 - 01:48

And so whether you're climbing the corporate ladder, Thinking about a major career change or just trying to figure out how to stay authentic in spaces that weren't designed for you, I hope you listen in as we kick off season two with this inspiring conversation that might just change the way you think about your own journey. We apologize for the sound quality in today's episode, and we appreciate your understanding. We tried something new, and sometimes it's just not perfect. But rest assured, you can expect our signature clear audio in all future episodes. Now let's dive into today's powerful conversation.

Lola

01:55 - 01:56

Oh, thank you.

Ukonwa

01:56 - 01:56

Yes,

Lola

01:56 - 01:57

and I'm sure

Ukonwa

01:57 - 02:03

I'm going to ask you this one. I did it for you. Oh, thank you. I love colors. I love colors. And I'm sure I know where you got that from.

Ukonwa

02:04 - 02:08

Ah, you're blanking till you get it. I don't need it. I don't need it. That's right.

Lola

02:08 - 02:21

Well, I am super, super excited that you're here. And you know, this is our very first video podcast for the Kadaya Woman podcast. So I'm super excited to share this with you. And for the listeners and the

Ukonwa

02:22 - 02:23

We have viewers now.

Lola

02:24 - 02:24

They probably don't know this, but we've been friends for 15 years now. Oh my

Ukonwa

02:28 - 02:30

God it's been that long. It's been that long. I don't

Lola

02:30 - 02:31

know,

Ukonwa

02:31 - 02:31

you don't have

Lola

02:31 - 02:32

grays.

Ukonwa

02:32 - 002:59

I have my grays. I'm kind of grateful. And we've been there through each other's career milestones, life, you know, just everything in between that. And I've seen you just rising over time. And it's always so great to learn that you have an impact even through everything you've accomplished. But before I distract myself, I actually want to start from the beginning. So I always love to start from how people, you know, what their root is, their heritage, and how that influenced the woman you are today, and what African country you're from.

Ukonwa

02:59 - 03:36

Yeah, so from Nigeria, but I've been in America now for, it seems like forever. But I went to high school in Nigeria. I was born there, raised there, graduated from high school, and then moved to the U.S. And a lot of times people ask me, like, why do you say you're Nigerian-American and not just say you're American? I was like, when you spend your formative years in the country, it forms so much of are.

Ukonwa

03:37 - 04:18

And if you don't give people that context, they may not understand why you do certain things you do. Like Nigerians are loud and boisterous or whatever. If I say I'm Nigerian-American, you get that. If I just say I'm American, you may not understand all those different nuances of my personality because I spent my formative years there. So yeah, I think that was definitely a really core part who I was, who I'm going to be. And then of course, like my family, my father, my mom, my sisters and brothers, my aunts and uncles and cousins, which is, when you say an Nigerian American, everybody's uncle, everybody's auntie, like the whole village kind of like raises you, right?

Ukonwa

04:18 - 04:47

So I think that also kind of forms like who you are. And of course, like most importantly, like love of God, that has been the one consistent thing in my life. I have loved him and served him my entire life, and he's been so good to me. And I would say that has also really informed who I am today. So yeah, those are probably the three biggest, three biggest rocks of, you know, my foundation.

Lola

04:48 - 05:03

I love that. And I know you talked about coming to the US when you were 15, right, which is super early for a lot of people. if you even remember that particular transition period, and if there's anything you haven't shared about that experience.

Ukonwa

05:03 - 05:42

Yeah, I mean, I think it was, it's really hard when you come to a completely different country, and in my case, you do it by yourself, like you do it without your parents. And you basically have to like stand on your own two feet. You have to figure out how to navigate a completely new society, how to navigate new language. Like we speak English in engineering, but American English and nuances of language are completely different. I remember coming over to Mac and I, I had to type all my papers and I couldn't type. So I had to like, like, it's the little thing.

Ukonwa

05:43 - 06:02

I have memories of learning how to type. Like I had to take a typing class. You didn't want to like do, yeah. Like literally I was like, I had to take a typing class and I was like, I've never really had to like, type before, which is really weird, because the acting's that, I don't even know if that's a good thing. How backwards is Nigeria that you didn't know how to type? We knew what we understood. I

Ukonwa

06:03 - 06:40

was like, we knew? I mean, it worked. But I know now, Nigeria is such a technology hub and all of that. But back then, even that was a transition. And navigating family, and uncles, and aunties, and all of that, who were helping take care of me and not my parents. And I was so used to being taken care of by my parents. So yeah, it was a really, really hard transition. But like I say, God's been really faithful. And I think I survived it all. You survived. I survived it, yeah. And I'm really grateful for that.

Lola

06:40 - 06:42

Do you remember what you wanted to be when you were younger?

Ukonwa

06:43 - 07:11

Okay, so I had different phases. So the first thing I wanted to be was I wanted to be a musician. And I actually use the word musician. What instrument? I didn't even know. I just knew I wanted to be a musician. That was the first thing I actually articulated in my mouth that I wanted to be. And my grandfather was like, kind of like Whitney Houston, like, hey, I'll tell you now, I'll tell you now, now, now. Like, he was like, no. Like, no granddaughter of mine is going to be a musician. And I was like, really?

Ukonwa

07:11 - 07:52

OK, then I've got to figure out something else that it's going to be. And so once I realized, OK, that was not going to be an option, then the rest of my family thought I should be a lawyer. because I was always very outspoken. I was always very good at advocating for myself or whoever I chose to advocate for at that particular point in time. And so they were all so sure that I should be a lawyer. And I considered being a lawyer, but I actually ended up studying. I was good at math and I actually ended up studying finance because when I was growing up, I would work for my dad and I worked in the finance department.

Ukonwa

07:53 - 08:25

and I worked in an accounting and finance department so I got very comfortable with like accounting and finance and all of that and so when I went to college and I had to pick a major I was like oh I've actually done this and so I kind of defaulted to what I could do versus what I would be great at um and it didn't take long for me to realize um I don't I while I can do this I don't know that I want to do this for the rest of my life and I had to then like, go a lot deeper to then figure out, okay, if it's not that, then what is it going to be?

Ukonwa

08:25 - 08:29

And that was a whole process of, like, trying to figure that out.

Lola

08:29 - 08:44

Which we'll probably get to that. And I think it's important to touch on the fact that a lot of us do what we're good at, especially when it comes to the stakes for education, because that was similar to me. I did a math and chemistry, and I went to chemical engineering, which, looking back now, I have no

Ukonwa

08:44 - 08:47

business in that track, you know? And

Lola

08:47 - 08:56

it's because of just we just think that's what we're supposed to do. And to your point about being a musician, no one's going to approve that. I mean, now they're a little bit more linear

Ukonwa

08:56 - 09:02

because of Afrobeats and everything, but you had to be one of the major four, right? Lawyer, accountant, doctor,

Lola

09:02 - 09:02

engineer. I

Ukonwa

09:03 - 09:04

did not want to be a doctor.

Ukonwa

09:05 - 09:18

I can't stand blood. Actually, I took premed. I cannot stand the sight of blood. I am a Christian. So that I ruled off like right away. I was like, okay, not doctors. So then what else is left?

Lola

09:18 - 09:23

Well, you were exposed to entrepreneurship, which we'll get to in a second, because you said you work at your dad's company.

Ukonwa

09:23 - 09:58

Yeah. My dad was an entrepreneur. My mom was an entrepreneur. My grandparents on both sides were entrepreneurs. So I'm the weird one, actually, for working in corporate. They were like, oh, okay, if that's what you want to do, go for it. But I definitely come from a long time. I feel like that is in my DNA, was in my DNA. I kind of like pushed it away and I did the smart thing. It's like, I'm going to do what's going to get me a job. Because when you move here without your parents, like you want to make sure that you can stand on your own two feet and you do what you know will work.

Ukonwa

09:59 - 10:22

And I knew that if I did accounting and finance, I knew I would get a job and that I would be independent and I'll be able to take care of myself. All the other things, I wasn't sure, but I knew that would work. And it worked. you know, I went to undergrad and I got a job right out of school, and I got a really well-paying job right out of school. And so I was like, yeah, it did what it was supposed to do, you know?

Lola

10:22 - 10:59

Yeah. And then your undergrad was accounting and finance, right? And then you went And then that pretty much launched your marketing career, which you spent 27 years. And if I may, I think we talked about, I mean, well, we haven't talked about it, but you had notable positions, including global chief marketing officer of Amazon Prime, MAC Cosmetics, CoverGirl, and of course, General Mills, which is where we met ages ago, a long time ago. And I'm going to ask you more about the moments in between all those headlines, right? And I'm curious to know if there's anything challenging

Ukonwa

10:59 - 11:39

that you were going through behind the scenes and how you overcame it. Yeah, I think the biggest thing was going through corporate America and being very notably different. So a lot of people celebrate, and I tell people this all the time, A lot of people celebrate when you are the first. Oh my God, first black woman to do this, first woman to do this, first black person to do this. And nobody really talks about how lonely it is after the celebration is over. So you go through like all, everybody's sharing the article. You did this.

Ukonwa

11:39 - 12:12

Oh my God, you did that. We love to see it. And then the celebration dies down and you walk into the room and you are the only one. And when stuff hits the fan, there's nobody to go to, or you don't know if you can trust them. And so that, that I would say was probably the hardest thing, because what happens is when you are different than when you actually show up and you're different than anybody else, nobody knows what to do with that. Your boss doesn't know what to do with that. Your colleagues don't know what to do with that.

Ukonwa

12:12 - 12:40

And I remember, I'll give you an example. I'm talking to a boss of mine and at one of, you know, the roles that everybody celebrated that I was in. And I remember when we did, you know, my performance review and they go, Oh, my God. the results that you have driven in the last year, I have never seen anybody do something like this so quickly. Like I literally have never seen it. It is. And I'm like, Oh my

Ukonwa

12:40 - 12:42

God, that's amazing. I'm crushing it.

Ukonwa

12:43 - 13:14

And he's like, and he goes on and on and on. And I'm feeling, and then all black people know the butt. And so it's like, you're like, this is amazing. I love this. And then the but comes, right? And then the but comes. And what's on the other hand, and it's like, everybody knows that pit in the stomach. And they're like, but there are these other things that we would love for you to fix. Like, if you could do this differently and do this differently. And a lot of those are personality different. If you could fix this, and you could do this, and you could do this, and you could do this, and you could do that.

Ukonwa

13:15 - 13:56

And what saved me was I read this book about Miles Monroe. I think it's called In Pursuit of Purpose. I recommend that book to everybody. And that book saved me because it gave me the language for me to have that kind of conversation when people are like, we're so loved that you can do what nobody else does. behave like everybody else. And so what I would ask as a question after the butt would be like, I would love to have a mentor through this process so I can figure out how to continue to deliver these results, but in the specific way that you want me to do it.

Ukonwa

13:57 - 14:13

And so I would always ask, can you give me an example? of someone in the organization that can mentor me, that is able to deliver these results that you think are so incredible, but also has all these traits that you think that I should demonstrate as well.

Lola

14:13 - 14:13

And

Ukonwa

14:13 - 14:47

after I would ask that question, people would fail me every single time. They'd go, great question. Let me think about it. I'm like, yeah, because there's like 20,000 people or 30,000 people or a million people that work here. So surely there has to be an example of someone that can have all these traits, but then do these results that you've never seen. And I've never had a boss come up with anything like that. But there isn't. There isn't. They're missing the fact that everything that makes you you is what makes you do that work. And that, for me, is not forgetting that fact.

Ukonwa

14:48 - 15:23

The fact is, if you are the first and you are the only, most likely, the benefit of the diversity is that diversity allows you to see things that have never been seen before. allow you to do things very differently than they've ever seen before. It then allows you to deliver results they've never seen before. And it's not possible for them to have one without the other. So it's like, if you're going to have the benefit of diversity, then you're going to have to be okay with the diversity. The whole package. Yeah, because what cannot happen is you have the benefit of the diversity, but you want me to be like everybody else.

Ukonwa

15:23 - 15:54

Logically, though, the same place. It's not possible. It doesn't add up. The math is not math. And so that, earlier on in my career, I wasn't confident enough, and I didn't know the language. And I didn't have the confidence of knowing that only the creator, only the person, and that's where Mars Monroe is helpful. It's like, only the person that made the thing knows why that thing is the way it was and why they shaped it. the way that it was. And if you are not the creator,

Ukonwa

15:55 - 15:56

you don't really know the thing.

Ukonwa

15:56 - 16:38

Like if you want to fix an iPhone, you got to go to Apple. Like they made it, they know all the intricacies of that. Like you're going to have to take a class or something. You're going to have to really understand and study that to be able to speak about it. And a lot of people, especially when dealing with people that are different than them, try to understand you or try to give you context when they don't know the person who made you or why they made you the way that you are. And I think the more confident I became in knowing that and moving in that power, it actually allowed me to deliver much better results in my career because I was trying to be different.

Ukonwa

16:38 - 16:42

I was trying to be the same and that like, it just doesn't work. It wasn't

Lola

16:42 - 16:45

working. So I love that you talked about the clarity

Ukonwa

16:45 - 16:45

of,

Lola

16:46 - 16:47

of trying who

Lola

16:47 - 17:01

you are to the creator, which I think is part of what this platform is about, right? It's all about highlighting people who have figured it out in that moment of clarity, a lot of people tied to their faith, and then they decide to just go on that path. Because

Ukonwa

17:01 - 17:01

I do agree with you, we're all created for a particular reason, some people multiple reasons, it doesn't even matter the size, but there's something in you that you're supposed to bring out into the world.

Lola

17:01 - 17:34

And so it's funny you said that, because I thought it was a good segue to talk about brand or koa, right? Because I don't think you intentionally set out to become the brand that you are. And I'm curious to know, A, how did you figure out along the way when it was getting, the brand was growing, right? How to keep parts of you private and the parts of you to expose by virtue of your roles, because you've had very public roles.

Ukonwa

17:34 - 18:18

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, like people talk about personal branding a lot. I'm not, I'm not a big believer in personal branding, to be honest, because I think that it allows you to focus on the wrong things. And it gives people almost like license to focus on the wrong things. My perspective is to give glory to the person who made me, I just decided to live myself out loud. And I think people interpreted that as like a branding thing. Because I remember someone asking me like, You have such a clear personal brand, like even your hair, like you have this name.

Ukonwa

18:18 - 19:00

I was like, this is not a brand. It sounds like it grows out of my head. I just decided one day that if my hair grows kinky, I'm gonna wear it kinky. It was not like a branding thing where I was just like, ooh, personal branding of Konwa. My hair's gonna look like this. I'm gonna dress like this. I'm gonna talk like this. I was like, no, I just decided if God made me this way, there must have been a reason why. And I'm just gonna live that out loud. in all the different areas of my life, from the little things like my hair, to my personality, to my confidence, to my love of my family, and my love of working hard, but also having, like, loving rest, my love of travel.

Ukonwa

19:00 - 19:27

Like, it was all these things that I wasn't totally sure if I could live them out loud, because I was like, is that okay? Is that permitted? And at some point in my 30s, I was like, you know what? What you see is what you get. And I actually think that God must have made me this way for a reason. I'm just going to really lean into that. And I'm just going to be that. And I think in doing that, other people may have interpreted that as a brand, but to be honest. But it was

Lola

19:27 - 19:28

consistent because it was authentic. It was authentic.

Ukonwa

19:28 - 19:29

But it also

Lola

19:29 - 19:32

sounds like it was around the time when everything was just taken off too.

Lola

19:32 - 19:35

When you stepped into it, right? Is that how it was? I would

Ukonwa

19:35 - 20:07

agree with that. I would agree with that. Because I actually gave a commencement address at my alma mater at UNC. And one of the points that I talked about is that if you think of your career as a pyramid, your sameness is what gives you kind of like an entry into the door. So the base of the pyramid has a lot of people. But there are a lot of people that graduate from college. There are a lot of people that have very similar credentials as you. And you all start, in fact, a lot of times, you come in as a class.

Ukonwa

20:07 - 20:32

You'll be like the marketing class of 2005 or whatever at General Mills. So you come in, and at that point, it's kind of about your sameness. And somewhere in the middle of your career, for the pyramid to keep getting smaller, it's a pyramid, Some people never figure out the game and the game is your sameness may get you in, but it's your difference that takes you

Lola

20:32 - 20:33

farther.

Ukonwa

20:34 - 21:06

Because the reality is now there's a lot of you and they have to figure out how many of you are going to go to the next level. And you're probably not going to get to the next level because you were just like everybody else. So do you deliver results different than everybody else? Is your style different than everybody else? Is your perspective different than everybody else? Are you bringing skills and knowledge that nobody else has? At that point, they have to be like, I got to go from 40 to 10. Why should you be part of the 10?

Ukonwa

21:06 - 21:37

And a lot of times it's your difference. that takes you further. And so I don't think it was a coincidence that I kind of woke up one day and I was like, you know what? I've tried the other way and it's given me a lot of heartache and it's given me a lot of frustration and it's led me to kind of doubt myself. And I'm going to just decide that I don't think God made a mistake when he made me. And if people want me, they're going to have to take everything that God made, the good, the bad, the everything.

Ukonwa

21:38 - 22:12

And as I started to do that, I started to actually get better career, better business results. When was that realization? Was that General Mills or afterwards? It was, I would say it was like in the middle of, I would say my thirties. And so I don't even know. Yeah. I would say my thirties and in my thirties, I worked at a number of different companies. I worked at General Mills. I worked at, um, Record Bank User. I worked at Unilever. So I would say like that, entire time period, I was kind of like coming into myself.

Ukonwa

22:12 - 22:47

And so you'll see that like over time, I was just coming into myself. And so with and it started like with the little things like I even remember the moment when I saw Viola Davis at the Oscars, and she had her hair short at the Oscars and in her natural hair. And I was like, I don't think I've ever seen that before. And I was like, that's actually really cool. I literally did my big job after that. And I was like, if she can wear it on the red carpet, then surely I can wear it to

Ukonwa

22:47 - 22:47

work. I

Ukonwa

22:47 - 23:19

was like, I can wear it to work. Like, why can't I, why don't I feel like I can wear the hair God gave me to work? And it was just like this. And so it was those little things. And that's why I was like, it wasn't just like one thing. It was like, okay, I'm going to wear my natural hair. Okay. I'm going to, you know, talk about, the fact that I'm not going to pretend like I don't have a child. I remember I would leave at five o'clock to go pick up my kid, and then I would re-engage later on in the night.

Ukonwa

23:20 - 23:52

In the beginning, you try to pretend like you don't have a child. You're just going to work like you used to. And then you're like, no, actually this doesn't work because I literally have to go pick up my kid. And so being very upfront about the fact that I'm going to go pick up my kid. If I still have stuff to do, I'll do it after he's, you know, he's eaten, he's gone to bed or whatever, I'll re-engage. But like, I'm going to stop kind of trying to like, maybe get a nanny to pick up my kids so that to you, you don't think that I have a kid.

Ukonwa

23:52 - 24:11

Something is happening like behind the scenes and it's invincible. And it's a part of you. Yeah, a very important part of me that I pray to God for, by the way. And so I'm like, no, no, I'm going to be like, I have a child. I have to go pick him up. And I will go do that, and I will make sure he's taken care of. And after that, I'll get back on, and I'll make sure you have what you need. And

Lola

24:11 - 24:12

deliver the result.

Ukonwa

24:12 - 24:43

And deliver the result. I will always deliver the result. But even those little things, all of a sudden, that starts to endear you to people. Because now people on your team are like, oh my god, thank you. I can be a mom, too. Because I was hiding the fact that I was a mom. Thank you for being a mom out loud, so that I can be a mom out loud. And it's one little thing after another. It's the hair. It's the mom. It's the, you know, the love of your spouse, like it's all these little, your faith, like it's all these things that you feel like you kind of have to hide because you're trying to be like everybody else.

Ukonwa

24:44 - 25:09

And at some point you go, no, I'm just, I'm gonna, I'm gonna live my life out loud. And you start to be, people start saying, oh, wow, seeing you live your life out loud gave me the confidence to do the same. And, and everybody's thing is different. But as you live all the different parts of yourself, each part of yourself can be an inspiration to someone

Lola

25:09 - 25:13

else. It makes a lot of sense. So I do remember when

Ukonwa

25:14 - 25:23

you were, I think it was at Amazon, and you got an opportunity to go back to Nigeria at that moment. And I just thought that was such a full circle moment because you also got to go back

Lola

25:23 - 25:31

to high school. And do you remember going back and going back in a corporate role to your high school. And

Ukonwa

25:31 - 25:32

of

Lola

25:32 - 25:38

course, there's some listeners who are going to want to know this high school, so make sure you disclose that. You know the rivalry that goes

Ukonwa

25:38 - 25:38

on

Lola

25:38 - 25:39

in Nigeria?

Ukonwa

25:39 - 25:55

The best high school is Queens College, and it's Yabba Lagos, so the other fave QC, but there's only one QC, it's Queens College, the one in Yabba. Why do QC girls do this all

Lola

25:56 - 25:56

the

Ukonwa

25:56 - 26:33

time? We just had one question. So anyways, when you went back to QC, how was that moment and do you remember how that affected you? It was probably one of the most emotional moments of my career because it was kind of a last minute thing. I went back to Nigeria, I got invited by the African And I was a keynote speaker for Africa. So I flew to Nigeria to go speak there. And so I was like, you know what? It would actually be really cool. I haven't been back home in a bit. I'm back home.

Ukonwa

26:33 - 27:03

It would be really cool to go to QC. So I had a really good friend of mine. She was part of kind of the QC All Girls Association. And so I reached out to her. I was like, I'm coming in. I think it would be cool, blah, blah, blah. And like, she took it like, to like the nth degree. That's what you guys do though. You guys do the most. Well, we always do. That's why we're like QC. And so I went there and like literally it was at the end of my trip. I think I was there the whole week and it was like the day before I flew out, it was like Friday or something.

Ukonwa

27:04 - 27:44

And so I was like, I finished speaking of Africa, it was like the whole week and then I'm going to go to QC. And then I go to QC and I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do there. And she said, Oh, you know, I think it would be great if you address the girls at assembly. And I remember being one of those girls at assembly. And so I showed up. at assembly and I couldn't believe how many girls were there. And they were so like, literally, as soon as I showed up, they were so excited that I showed up.

Ukonwa

27:45 - 28:18

And it was a very short speech, but it was a heartfelt speech. And I talked to them. And I remember it was like eight minutes, it was super, super short. And I talked to them about my career track and I just wanted to inspire them to let them know that just because they started here that any position in the world is their oyster, they can do anything because I was them. And I didn't even imagine at that point in time that I would go to the US, that I didn't imagine at that point in time that I would be running global marketing for Prime Video.

Ukonwa

28:18 - 29:18

Like I didn't imagine all of these things. And I just wanted them to know that it was all possible for them. And after the speech, I decided to go downstairs and meet with the girls. And when I say I got mobbed, like I got Like Amazon security had to come to pull me out of the crowd because like the girls just literally lost it. Like they just were so excited. And I, when Amazon security kind of like, they were worried about my safety. So they pulled me back and I just had tears in my eyes because I was just like, God, like you just look out and you see the potential and you realize that any one of those girls could go to a number of different places.

Ukonwa

29:18 - 29:55

And if this moment inspires them to what is possible, it was truly, truly, truly a full circle moment. One for the full circle moment of it. And then the second was like, it just reminded me how good God had been to me. And I was just like, God, I don't know why you picked me because I was just like one of hundreds of girls. So why did you pick me to have this power in another country so far away? Like who would have thunk it? And so it got, it was very emotional for me because I was just like.

Ukonwa

29:56 - 30:36

I'm emotional now. Yeah. I was like, I don't know why you picked me, but I'm so grateful that you did. And I, I already was going to serve you my whole life, but I will serve you my whole life. Because I just, I remember where it came from. And I remember that I didn't have to have this path. And I would still have been successful if I didn't have this path, because whatever path God has for your life, so long as you're living in the purpose of success, But to be able to have success spiritually, but also success in the way that you define success, or the way that the world defines success, it's a privilege.

Ukonwa

30:37 - 30:43

And I was just like, I don't know why you chose me, but I'm grateful. I'm truly, truly, truly

Ukonwa

30:43 - 30:43

grateful.

Lola

30:44 - 30:49

It's funny that we're emotional now, because this happened years ago. And I remember when you told me about that moment, too, because

Lola

30:49 - 30:51

I saw the identity

Ukonwa

30:53 - 30:53

like, oh

Lola

30:53 - 31:00

my goodness, this must have been an amazing moment. And then you told me about, you know, what you said, which was unplanned. It was just a

Speaker 2

31:00 - 31:01

last minute

Lola

31:01 - 31:15

thing. And I love what you just said about, I will, I was always going to serve you, but I will serve you. And so it's a great segue into this part of the conversation, which I call the kadamo.

Ukonwa

31:20 - 31:44

had that moment, from that experience, was that the beginning of the decision to leave corporate America? Yeah. Leaving corporate America was, I would say, several decades in the making. We started about, everybody in my family was an entrepreneur. And I was the weird one. The wayward child. Yeah, I was the weird

Speaker 2

31:45 - 31:45

one.

Ukonwa

31:45 - 32:02

And so I always knew that I would go back. to be an entrepreneur. It was just a matter of when. The only thing that they don't tell you is you have golden handcuffs. So the more successful you are, the harder it is to walk away. And like God literally had to

Speaker 2

32:03 - 32:03

help me with that.

Ukonwa

32:04 - 32:31

Because I think that's what made it harder. So sometimes it's actually easier to do it when you're young. broke and it's like you don't have any other option, right? But when you've gone on this path with God and he helps you be really successful and he goes, that's great. Now it's time to do this other thing. You're like, are you sure? I don't know if that was you. Let me think about that some more. I'm going to pray about that because I'm not totally sure. You want me to walk away from what exactly? I don't know because I kind of like the way things are now.

Ukonwa

32:31 - 32:50

It's kind of cush. And so that's when it gets really But there were so many kind of markers along the way that made it clear that not only was I supposed to go back to

Speaker 2

32:50 - 32:52

being an entrepreneur,

Ukonwa

32:52 - 32:54

it made the timing very clear.

Lola

32:55 - 32:59

What were one of those markers? If you want to share.

Ukonwa

32:59 - 33:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were a lot of them. I would say I'm just trying to see what aspects of it I want to share. So one, I was a part of the Henry Crown Fellowship. And that fellowship at the Aspen Institute, in a lot of ways, actually really changed my life. Because they talk about going from success to significance. And they give you the tools to make that transition. So for one, they're basically like, okay, you've had a very successful career, but as you look at the next few decades of your life, what is the legacy that you want to leave?

Ukonwa

33:51 - 33:59

And for some people, it's one and the same, the career that they're in, they're already on the track to leave the legacy. But I knew that that was different

Ukonwa

34:00 - 34:01

for

Ukonwa

34:01 - 34:49

me. I knew that yes, I was successful in what I was doing, But there were a couple of things that God had made clear to me that he wanted me to do. And I knew that if I waited till the end of my life and I hadn't done them, I would really regret not doing them. And I wouldn't have a good enough excuse to God as to why I didn't do it. Because at some point it was like, why did I keep on the path that I was? To get a bigger house? to get a bigger car, to get more cars, to travel to more, like what, none of those things, if I got face to face with God at the end of my life, why would I tell him that I didn't do what he asked me to do?

Ukonwa

34:50 - 35:19

Especially the same person who had been so kind to bless me in ways that I didn't deserve. And so for me, I was just like, yeah, no, I don't think this is the thing that I'm supposed to at the end of my life say, you do with your life. And I'll be like, Oh, well, I just continued on the path you asked me not to stay on. But look at all the houses I bought. And look at all the cars I got. I don't think he would care about that. Like, we know he won't care about that.

Ukonwa

35:19 - 35:21

So you already knew what you were supposed to do, but you were

Lola

35:22 - 35:25

kind of fraying over it. Like, are you sure it's you talking?

Ukonwa

35:25 - 35:59

Or like saying, I can do it in five years. I can do it. But then nobody nobody guarantees you that you have, not to be morbid, but nobody guarantees you that you're going to have that time. And so if you're not guaranteed to have that time, then you just need to obey. And so at that point in time, I've spent so much time, like my walk with him now is so much closer than it was even back then, because I've had a lot of time to deepen my relationship with him. As an entrepreneur, I've actually built my life around my relationship with him.

Ukonwa

36:00 - 36:16

So it's a little bit different now. But now, as I've gotten closer to him, I know even more now that the only KPI, so key performance indicator, the only KPI God cares about is obedience. He doesn't care about anything

Lola

36:16 - 36:17

else. But

Ukonwa

36:17 - 36:42

the work will get done. And if you don't do it, he will take it from you and he will give it to someone else. And he literally said that to me. He was like, I have given you this thing to do. If you do not do it, I will give it to somebody else. Wait, no, wait a minute. Because what is not going to happen is not after you've been so good to me, I'm going to be like, oh, yeah, give it to somebody else. I

Speaker 2

36:42 - 36:43

don't

Ukonwa

36:43 - 36:58

want to be bothered with that. And I said, no, if obedience is what you care about, then I will stop. And I will obey. And I will trust you with the rest of it. And that started the chapter. And that was really hard. And so laying down those- It was hard

Lola

36:58 - 37:00

because of the golden handcuffs, right?

Ukonwa

37:00 - 37:06

Because of the golden handcuffs. It was hard because the reality is you have to lay aside your selfish

Ukonwa

37:06 - 37:08

ambition

Ukonwa

37:09 - 37:29

and be like, why do I have an ambition that it's outside of the purpose of my career? Where did that come from? And why do I have that? And like, those are questions we don't really want to answer because that means you're either worshiping yourself or you are worshiping something that is not yourself and is not God.

Lola

37:29 - 37:30

which

Ukonwa

37:30 - 37:31

you shouldn't be

Lola

37:31 - 37:31

doing.

Ukonwa

37:32 - 38:03

And so for me, it was just like really delving deep enough to be like, where is the selfish ambition coming from if it's not aligned with God? If your selfish ambition is what he told you to do, awesome, go for it. But if it's different than that, then at least in my case, I had to stop and reflect and go, why is that? And then what do you want me to do? And how do I pivot so that they're both aligned and they're both in the same place? a period of probably six months to a year.

Ukonwa

38:03 - 38:03

From

Lola

38:03 - 38:05

the clarity moment to when you had to

Ukonwa

38:05 - 38:56

make a decision. Yeah, that was a long moment of just a lot of prayer, tears, fighting. And you loved your spouse. Asking forgiveness, like it was a lot of that, like a lot of just really soul searching. that just guided you through that process when you're just trying to get that clarity? I would say Henry Crown was a big part of that, was helpful with that. I would say my husband was a really big part of that because I think one of the things that you kind of have to realize, at least I realized in my life, um, when you get married, you and your spouse become one.

Ukonwa

38:56 - 39:25

And so you're, you can also like having an ambition that's also outside of your spouse is also kind of weird. And so if I'm now saying, Ooh, I feel like I'm being kind of like led in this area, doing that outside of my spouse is also kind of weird. And so like, I have to have a conversation with my spouse and like, I feel like I'm supposed to be doing this thing. And your expectation, expectation is if you've been doing this, You've been on this track, you don't know how your spouse is going to react to that.

Ukonwa

39:25 - 40:04

But my husband was like, oh my God, I'm behind you 1000%. Like whatever it is you want to do, like I got you. And so being able to make that transition. together as partners and as friends and as husband and wife. He was definitely a core part of that. My sisters, I'm so close to my sisters, and their counsel, they were definitely part of that. My dad, like, yeah, my mom just passed away, but definitely my dad. But yeah, a lot of people that have been part of my personal board of directors really my whole life.

Ukonwa

40:04 - 40:24

The direction came from God, but the counsel, as you kind of pivot and get counsel along the way from people that you respect and that you trust and you know, like want the best for you. And so being unafraid to ask for that help and to get that help.

Lola

40:25 - 40:28

So you said pivot. And I think it's

Lola

40:29 - 40:36

perfect because now we're rooted into the purpose, clarity, the work that you were told to do. And I know you have a lot of dreams.

Ukonwa

40:36 - 40:38

We all have a lot of dreams, actually. So

Lola

40:38 - 40:41

how did you figure out the first one to tackle?

Ukonwa

40:41 - 40:44

What was the first one that you were like, okay,

Lola

40:44 - 40:56

I made a decision. I'm leaving corporate. I'm leaving at the pinnacle. of my career. And everybody around us was probably thinking, are you crazy? And you're like, no, this is, I've done the work. It took me a couple of months to get there.

Ukonwa

40:57 - 40:58

Now, what am I going to do first?

Ukonwa

40:59 - 40:59

How

Ukonwa

40:59 - 41:41

did you figure that out? Or what was it? Yeah. So I'll say the number one thing was recognizing that my life was completely out of balance. So if you asked me what my priorities were, I would have said my faith. my family, my friends, and then my work. But in reality, what my life was like, was like, it was my work, then my work, then my work, then my work, and then everybody else. And you know, as my friend, that the friend part, by the time I got through all the work, and then I got the family, and then the friends will like totally get shafted.

Ukonwa

41:43 - 42:25

And I just, my life was completely out of balance. And so one of the things I knew after spending time was like, okay, I know that what's really important to me is that in this second half of my life, my life would be, I wanted my faith to be my work so that I could spend so much of my time and energy doing that. And so it would automatically be in alignment because it would become my work. And so I knew that the direction was going to be there. I didn't completely know how, but I knew the direction was going to be there.

Ukonwa

42:26 - 43:06

And so I started spending more time with God. I started reading my Bible. I started praying a lot. And it was one of the times that I was reading my Bible. that I ran across John 17, 23, and it was Jesus after the Lord's Supper, and he was talking to his father. And he basically said, this prayer is for, not just for my disciples, but for everyone who believes in me. And he says, I wish they would be one as you and I are one. And if they are, the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.

Ukonwa

43:07 - 43:15

And when I read that, it was like, I had served in my whole life, but I had never read that. And it had a very

Ukonwa

43:16 - 43:16

different meaning for me

Ukonwa

43:17 - 43:53

because it almost became like, oh, why haven't I seen that before? So if the world is going to know that he loves them, they're going to know that when we are one. Well, are we one? Why aren't we one? And that became kind of an obsession. And I described it sometimes as a burden. And so I started doing research and I realized that there were 2.6 billion Christians around the world, but what had started with like Jesus and just 12 disciples had now splintered into like 46,000 different nations and rites. And I became completely obsessed with turning that around.

Ukonwa

43:53 - 44:06

And then I said, what does it look like if all of the Christians around the world came together in one place? And I spent a lot of time obsessing over

Ukonwa

44:06 - 44:07

that.

Ukonwa

44:08 - 44:55

And what came out of that is what today is known as ZAIA. So Z-A-I-A. And that is a platform that is now available on the App Store, on Google Play Store. And my vision is it will be the platform where every Christian is going to come together. And the vision is that in coming together, the world will know that he sent Jesus and God loves them as much as he loves his own son. And so that has become the obsession of my life. And that is something I know that I will spend the next, however many more decades God gives me of my life, is working towards that unity in the body.

Ukonwa

44:57 - 45:25

and doing whatever I can do to help that human being's body. So, yeah. That was the work. That was the one that kept coming back. And then you have Zaya Ventures. That's kind of like a backing behind that, right? And that, you want to talk about Zaya Ventures too? Yeah. So what I basically did was I created Zaya Ventures to house these kind of visions that God has

Speaker 2

45:25 - 45:25

given me

Ukonwa

45:25 - 46:27

and given me. It's a venture studio. And so what we do is we see a white space, we either build something in that white space, or we invest behind the founder in that space. And so ZEA, which is the tech platform to bring all Christians worldwide together, 2.6 billion, almost 3 billion of us, is one of the companies that we have founded under ZEA Ventures. the second thing for me was my mom passed away like really tragically about 12 years ago and I just felt like she was really gone too soon and I wanted to make sure that the world never forgot who she was and so my mom was a fashion designer so I get my fashion sense from her and my sisters and I thought it would be really cool if we started honor so that the world will never forget her.

Ukonwa

46:28 - 46:54

And so Ada and Edith is the other place where I spend a lot of my time. And so we also founded Ada and Edith, which is kind of a luxury apparel line for women. And Ada is my mom's first name, Edith is my mom's middle name. And so everywhere that, you know, Ada and Edith shows up and it's, you know, we've already gotten coverage, whether it's on TV or in certain publications, like everybody gets to know

Lola

46:57 - 47:01

Wait, we're not gonna go, you're not just gonna skip, what are we wearing?

Ukonwa

47:02 - 47:05

Yes, I don't eat it. Yes, and I'm repping this, this, this. This

Ukonwa

47:05 - 47:06

is

Ukonwa

47:06 - 47:08

I don't eat it as well. And

Lola

47:08 - 47:18

I remember actually when you told me about I don't eat it, you actually were sketching, you were sketching designs. And I remember saying, I hope there's going to be yellow

Ukonwa

47:18 - 47:20

in one of your creations, because that's

Lola

47:20 - 47:22

my favorite color. She loves

Ukonwa

47:22 - 47:24

yellow, yeah. And she came, became, this is

Lola

47:24 - 47:25

why it's good to have a friend

Ukonwa

47:25 - 47:26

who's a fashion designer,

Lola

47:26 - 47:31

because you can just make demands. Demands, by the way, because there are a lot of things she's created that I'm like, Are you going

Ukonwa

47:31 - 47:31

to make

Lola

47:31 - 47:43

yellow? But yes, I wanted to acknowledge that we're both white and I thought it was actually, it worked. It just worked. And so thank you for listening. See, did you know when we were sketching that this would

Ukonwa

47:43 - 47:52

come up? I didn't know. You never know. You lean into it and it happens like it happens. It's almost

Lola

47:52 - 47:52

a year

Ukonwa

47:52 - 47:53

old, right?

Lola

47:53 - 47:53

A year, yeah.

Ukonwa

47:53 - 47:54

It's

Lola

47:54 - 47:56

already in. You really got a lot of press in Houston,

Ukonwa

47:56 - 47:56

actually. Yeah,

Lola

47:56 - 47:58

yeah, yeah. And actually, not just in Houston, around the US as

Ukonwa

47:58 - 47:59

well. Around the US, yeah.

Lola

47:59 - 48:08

And it's quality clothes. And it's actually very, I loved how thoughtful you were about that line, because you literally were just like, it's for the woman who is a woman today.

Ukonwa

48:09 - 48:09

Ah, yes. It's

Lola

48:09 - 48:24

not, you know, we all know about the Spans, and all the things we're trying to hold together. And this is comfortable clothes. I'm not exaggerating. And so it's very, very thoughtful clothes. Yes, yeah. And then there was the ventures, which also does technology investments,

Ukonwa

48:24 - 48:24

right?

Lola

48:24 - 48:28

And I know you have a certain underrepresented communities

Ukonwa

48:28 - 49:12

that you invest in, right? Yeah, so there's kind of two aspects of what we do. So one is investing behind the companies that we're building. So Zeya is one, the tech platform of Christian, Aden Egypt is the second. And then the third bucket is we want to get behind underrepresented founders. And where we see incredible founders that have great ideas, where we believe we can help because we can't help everywhere. So it's in the spaces that I know really well and I believe that I can help, where we believe we can help. And then we invest in the founders, not just in financial resources, but then also in advice and in advisory resources as well.

Ukonwa

49:13 - 49:57

or making introductions where it's necessary, or making connections, you know, where it's necessary. And so, yeah, I know one that we haven't publicized all of the investments we've made, but one that we have publicized is our investment in Tapes Animation Studios. Ah, that's very, yeah, it was in Variety and it was covered in different publications around the world. And that's really about taking African stories to having worked on movies and TV shows at Amazon Prime Video. When I met Adele, who's the founder and the CEO, I just thought they had a really compelling vision and I wanted to be a part of it.

Ukonwa

49:57 - 50:19

And I thought that I could help them on that journey. So they're already doing an incredible job, but it's fantastic to kind of go along with them and help them. However, They need help on their journey to take African stories to the world. So I'm super excited about that. So let's just track this. In the last couple of years, you've pretty much given birth to three business babies.

Lola

50:22 - 50:29

Ventures, Zeya Ventures, Zeya App, and then Ada and Edith. And then they're just all toddling right now,

Speaker 2

50:29 - 50:30

which is

Lola

50:30 - 50:35

amazing. And so you basically went from one to multiple. That means there's probably more coming out. So I

Ukonwa

50:35 - 50:35

guess we

Lola

50:35 - 50:37

just have to stay tuned.

Ukonwa

50:37 - 50:37

So what has

Lola

50:37 - 50:39

been the hardest thing you had

Ukonwa

50:39 - 50:59

to learn becoming an entrepreneur? I would say... The hardest thing is, and I think I've shared this with you before, because like you said, we're friends, is the biggest thing is you have to learn to take your ego, put it on a plate,

Ukonwa

51:00 - 51:00

and eat it.

Ukonwa

51:01 - 51:46

Every day. Every day. You're gonna explain that for people. Every day. You're like, what did you eat today? I ate my ego. lunch and dinner. What happened? Because you come from being a corporate executive, you have massive teams, massive budgets, sometimes billions of dollars, you were managing teams around the world. Like, you like literally you send an email and people are like, what you need? We are here for you. Let's go. And to some extent, because of the profile that you have, you still get some of that, but it's nothing like, if I send an email saying, Amazon needs, they're like, what do you need?

Ukonwa

51:46 - 52:30

We are here for you. And so for me making that transition and recognizing I was gonna start a business, but I wasn't gonna start with a team of 1,000. And like all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I have a team, but I don't have anywhere near the team that I had before. And I have resources, but I'm not managing a multi-billion dollar budget. And so that's where you go, this is different than what I used to do before. It's a more meaningful and purposeful vision. And it will grow to be like, I have zero doubt about that.

Ukonwa

52:30 - 53:15

We will definitely do that. But the journey to that place requires patience, requires humility, requires trusting other people, and humbling yourself. and trusting other people along the way. And I think for me, that was the biggest, you just realize that day one, all of a sudden, your team is a lot smaller than it used to be. And so you just stretch yourself in ways that you didn't stretch yourself before. On the other hand, I actually think that's a really good thing. Because I have learned so much, so much, that I didn't even know that I would learn.

Ukonwa

53:16 - 53:46

And so there are other sides to that. And then you meet so many incredible people. Like yesterday, we had a trunk show for Ada and Edith. And I met the most incredible human beings. And I don't know if I would have met, maybe I would have met them in my, you know, past life. But the fact is, I'm meeting them now. And it filled my cup and I woke up and I was filled with joy when I woke up this morning. And I don't know that I would have met them before. There are definitely joys that go along with that.

Ukonwa

53:46 - 54:26

And I wouldn't trade this for my past life. But there are definitely times when you have to deal with things. You're like, why am I dealing with this? I would never have dealt with this in the past. I remember when we were launching I Don't Need Death, the first shoot we did in London, and I thought it would be really cool to do it in London, because my mom went to fashion school in London, and it felt like a really full circle moment. And so the shoot is the next day, and the clothes have been shipped from, our clothes are made in Italy, they're woven in Italy, made in Italy, and then they ship it for the shoot, and the clothes don't arrive.

Ukonwa

54:26 - 54:57

And you have the shoot happening. And I'm like, oh my God, this is ridiculous. We need to have this photo shoot, And so I put on my entrepreneur hat, and I went to the UPS warehouse, and I was like, where are my clothes? I am not leaving here until I get my clothes. And they were like, ma'am, you can't be here. They were like, ma'am, you can't be here. I was like, no, what you don't understand is I have a shoot happening tomorrow, and I am going to be with my clothes tomorrow. And I understand it's in this warehouse somewhere, but you haven't delivered it.

Ukonwa

54:58 - 55:21

So I'm going to need you to go back into that warehouse and find my clothes. They thought I was kidding. I was like, I'm not even being weird. Cause the shoot is also costing you money. Yeah. And you have teams of people, you have models, photographers, you can go just like, you've, there are a lot of things that kind of go into this moment. And in that moment I was like, why am I here? I would never have been here before. Like, this is crazy.

Speaker 2

55:22 - 55:24

But they went in the warehouse and they got my clothes

Ukonwa

55:24 - 55:52

and they found my shipment and we shot as expected. But there was a moment where I'm standing in this warehouse and I would be like, why am I in this warehouse? How did I end up here? What am I doing with my life that I'm in this warehouse? Like telling a guy that like, you better go find my clothes. That is a moment where you're like, I'm gonna take my ego. I'm going to put it on a plate, I'm going to eat it. So you're like, this is the part of my ego that I hate today, but

Lola

55:53 - 55:54

I've got my clothes

Ukonwa

55:54 - 56:25

on. Thank you, Sia. Chop it up, grill it if you want. Put some olive oil on it, whatever. Just put the ego, eat it, and be like, you got to do what you got to do. And that was not a moment to be executive. I trust that you will handle it. Who's the you? Pick up a mirror. Who's the you? The you is you. Pick up your phone, do the selfie, flip it around, be like, you're going to handle it. You're going to drive down to UPS. You're going to sit in that warehouse and you're going to say, I'm not leaving this place.

Ukonwa

56:28 - 57:23

And so those are the moments where like, I didn't have to do that before, but I have to do it now. But now it's a story that I now, like I can now tell about what it was like on this. So everybody danced on the shoot and it was like an incredible launch. We had such an amazing launch, but nobody knew that that shoot almost didn't happen. Like it was just like, oh, it almost didn't happen. I didn't have this full circle. moment of shooting it in London where my mom got her fashion education so yeah like there are definitely like painful moments but then sometimes out of those painful moments come growth and strength and humility and joy and so when you're on the other side of it you're like oh that was painful but that was actually kind of fun kind of like having a baby like it's really painful to go through it but then at the moment where you see a baby you're like oh my god like that was totally worth it Entrepreneurship is a lot like that.

Ukonwa

57:23 - 57:23

All

Lola

57:24 - 57:27

right, so we talked about your life as an entrepreneur and

Lola

57:27 - 57:34

you've had some pivotal moments and opportunities that have happened without your titles, right?

Lola

57:34 - 57:39

One of them that you actually talked about earlier in the conversation, which was when you went back to give a keynote speech, that happened

Ukonwa

57:40 - 58:15

recently after the titles. Do you remember getting that call and what that felt like? Yeah, it's interesting. There have been a few moments like that, because when you walk away from corporate, you wonder what your life will be like without, my name is Okunwa, I am the CMO of X. And you know that whatever it is you're going to do after, there's going to be a time where you build it up to be as big as X. But there's always a point of transition. For some people, it's a day. For some people, it's a year.

Ukonwa

58:15 - 58:49

For some people, it's 10 years. For some people, it's their whole lifetime. And you don't know how long it's going to take. But you have to kind of emotionally prepare yourself for that period. And so I had to recognize that, like, yeah, I was probably going to lose some cachet in this transition. And for some people, that kind of keeps them from going into their purpose, because they don't want to deal with that transition, that murky, yucky bit, like in the middle of that transition point, they didn't want to go through that. But when I said, you know what, I'm going to do this.

Ukonwa

58:50 - 59:16

God, if this is what you want me to do, I'm all in. Let's go. Let's do this. And whatever happens, happens. And I was prepared for my yucky bit to take a long period of time. But it's so funny that there's so many times when you kind of like give things over to God. And then he goes, I just wanted to see if you'd give But since you're so willing to give it over, I'm going to give it to you

Ukonwa

59:16 - 59:16

anyway.

Ukonwa

59:17 - 1:00:02

And so it was so great that very quickly, really, after I left corporate and I started building, I had so many opportunities come to me when UNC came to me and said, would you give our commencement address? And they billed me as Ucoma's CEO of Jesea Ventures. I was like, oh my God, like I'm giving my commencement address as an entrepreneur. I'm being billed as what I'm creating. And that was such a powerful moment for me. And it was incredible. And talk about another, you know, full circle moment to be standing. I didn't even go to my graduation.

Ukonwa

1:00:03 - 1:00:38

I didn't because I was being cheap. I was like, I loaded up on the credits, graduated in December and started working because I was just like, I just need to go out there and make some money. And graduation, I started working and then graduation was like after I had started working. And so I had to go back to my school. I was like, nah, I'm not paying a flight ticket, hotel to go walk on the stage. And so when UNC called me to do the commencement, they didn't realize that I had never walked. And so I was actually very emotional.

Ukonwa

1:00:38 - 1:01:05

Maybe I'll even at some point share the video with me. I was very emotional at the commencement speech because I was like, you don't understand the gift that you gave me. The first gift is I got to walk, because as the commencement speaker, you kind of walk ahead of the students. And so I was walking, I was like, God, you were a great restorer, right? Because you didn't have to give me this. So not only do I get to be commencement speaker, but I get to walk in graduation ceremony. And this is such a gift.

Ukonwa

1:01:05 - 1:01:40

and a full circle moment that I get to do this. But then also coming back, and like I did at Queens College, going back to UNC Chapel Hill for the business school and saying, look at what happens to your life. And I talked to them like I was talking to the very young me that would have been sitting there and saying, look at what has happened to your life and everything you dreamed would happen, like it actually happened, right? And so at the end of my speech, I go, I was talking to younger Okonwa, and I said, and you get to come back here as the commencement speaker.

Ukonwa

1:01:40 - 1:02:20

And I just broke down, it was very emotional for me. And I, it was, and I did it as Okonwa CEUSA Ventures. And it was a perfect time for me to go back as commencement speaker, because I dreamed of being an entrepreneur when I was in undergrad in business school. My classmates knew this about me. And so to come back as an entrepreneur, and that was when I got the call to be the commencement speaker, it was like such a powerful, powerful, powerful full circle moment for me. I also got to go back to Cannes Lions Festival, and I remember getting my badge, and I had been to Cannes Lions Festival so many different times.

Ukonwa

1:02:20 - 1:02:21

I'd spoken there so many different

Speaker 2

1:02:21 - 1:02:21

times,

Ukonwa

1:02:22 - 1:02:24

but I was always Uklungwen CMO

Speaker 2

1:02:24 - 1:02:24

of this,

Ukonwa

1:02:24 - 1:03:03

Uklungwen CMO of this, and I got all these speaking opportunities as Uklungwen Chief Monitoring Officer of whatever. And so to go back to Cannes Lions Festival, and be sitting on a main stage and my badge said, Lukoma CEO of SayAventures, I was like, wow, like these are things. And for whoever kind of called me and said, Oh, we'd love for you to do this. I didn't necessarily, I didn't even know there were things I wanted to do. And to be honest, I was, it was okay if I never did them. But there's something really powerful about doing a lot of the things that you did before, but doing them in your name and for your company.

Ukonwa

1:03:03 - 1:03:24

There is like this, it's an incredible, incredible feeling. And it was very validating in that moment to have those kind of, and be able to talk about topics that were about your current journey, not necessarily what you used to do, and just continue to add value to the world by doing it on your journey, on your journey.

Lola

1:03:27 - 1:03:33

I love, I love that because, and that was why I wanted you to talk about it. I didn't want to know about the bit

Ukonwa

1:03:33 - 1:03:34

that you

Lola

1:03:34 - 1:03:35

didn't

Ukonwa

1:03:35 - 1:03:35

walk from your first

Lola

1:03:35 - 1:03:36

degree.

Ukonwa

1:03:36 - 1:03:42

I mean, I can see making that decision too back then. So I understand that. I think it

Lola

1:03:42 - 1:03:46

was actually worthwhile to say that you've actually spoken at Kellogg to where you got

Ukonwa

1:03:46 - 1:04:21

your MBA. It was under the billing of your titles. So I figured the UNC moment would be more impactful because like you said, You're building this into your- Well, you know, it's so funny. So I, I was, I'm on the advertising for Kellogg. So like, the Kellogg MBA, like when you see an ad from Kellogg, I'm actually one of the people that they feature in their ad. And when they shot it, I was, you know, CMO of Prime Video. And, but I didn't even realize the ads were still running. And so I had a young woman, she was like, I saw your ad for Kellogg.

Ukonwa

1:04:21 - 1:04:39

I was like, what ad? She was like, yeah, CEO Zia Ventures. I was like, what, really? And so now like still, Kellogg is running ads with my image. They updated it as CEO Zia Ventures. And I know as a marketer that they would not continue to

Speaker 2

1:04:39 - 1:04:40

run it if it wasn't

Ukonwa

1:04:40 - 1:05:11

effective. I was like, I know, it's working. And so to know that they continue to run the advertising that I shot like three years ago, and they're still running it till today. And she's like, Oh my god, I get served your ad all the time, like on the digital ads. And they updated it to my new title. And it continues to be know, continues to be effective, I dare to say, because I believe that being blessed is probably even more effective, because the anointing

Ukonwa

1:05:11 - 1:05:11

is on it.

Ukonwa

1:05:14 - 1:05:43

The fact that it continues to be there, but it's under the building of who I am today, it just shows that like, I trusted God, which is the next chapter of my life. And, and I haven't had to miss a beat. Like he has given, like I've got to build something completely new and I didn't actually use what I had before. And so it was almost kind of this, it's been, it's been a, it's been a big blessing. Yeah.

Lola

1:05:44 - 1:06:10

Yeah. And I, you know, there's one thing I wanted to also share because I've been front row in some years, some years I haven't because of just time. And I've seen you though, just navigate again, the valleys and peaks and, you know, through your, personal challenges as well. And I'm curious to know if there's any of those experiences when you look at it as a whole, if that's changed your perspective

Lola

1:06:10 - 1:06:12

on success and fulfillment.

Ukonwa

1:06:14 - 1:07:06

Yeah. Yeah, I think that when you're younger, Success is defined by achievement, and in some cases, the possession of things. And it was interesting. I just did an interview for the WE Institute. And one of the questions they asked me was like, what is the thing that you cannot live without? And it was really interesting because I thought about it. And I was like, there is nothing that I can't live without. Like I'm not, things are not my thing. And it's just interesting how that transition has happened, where in the beginning, it's just like, it's about getting things and more things and owning bigger things and shinier things.

Ukonwa

1:07:07 - 1:08:20

And I'm now at a place in my life where I've been blessed with things, and I'm very grateful for them. But there's nothing in my life, no thing, physical thing in my life that I would not be I was like, I think the way I actually answered that question was like, what I can't live without, my husband is my rock. And so it becomes more about the people that you love and the people that surround you and my faith that gives me meaning and gives me a reason to get up every day. And those, for me, other things that the things that have like eternal significance and like long-term significance those are the things that really mean a lot to me right now um and the things that I thought would have been meant so much to me when I was younger and I I worked so hard so I could buy them and collect them after a while I was like I mean I drive a nice car but even if I didn't drive this car I wouldn't care um I love my house but To be honest, I went on vacation, my husband, he was cracking up about this.

Ukonwa

1:08:21 - 1:08:31

We went on vacation in Italy and we stayed in this super, the cutest little kind of cave house in Iraq that had like two bedrooms. And I was like, I

Ukonwa

1:08:31 - 1:08:40

could live here. And he's like, what? And I was like, I could totally live here. I would be so happy here. Just me, you, like our kid,

Ukonwa

1:08:40 - 1:09:26

and like, you know, like in this two bedroom in the rock. He's like, you have a lot to go. He shut it down real quick. But I wasn't kidding. Like, I could live there. Like, I think I'm at a point in my life where, like, the things that give me joy, like being in beautiful places and learning new things, the people that I love, like, that's what gives me joy. And it actually doesn't cost a lot. And so it's just interesting how you work your whole life for something and then you kind of get it and you're like, I don't know actually the journey is a lot more fun, the experience is a lot more fun, the people that I get to do it with, like those are the people that I never want to give up, like those are the people that I want to share my life and my experiences with and all this other stuff I could lose.

Ukonwa

1:09:26 - 1:10:14

It's all Like, who cares? Like, I honestly genuinely, like, who cares? So, yeah, I think, obviously it took me decades to learn this, but if I can shortcut it for anybody who is, like, literally killing themselves to get these things, it's not worth it. It really isn't worth it. If you have a partner that you love, like, just love them. and protect your relationship. One of the things also that I said in the commencement speech is love is worth fighting for. And so if you have love and you have found love and it is good love and it is healthy love, spend your energy fighting for that.

Ukonwa

1:10:15 - 1:10:26

I would rather you spent your waking moments pouring into that love than pouring into things or to acquire things that don't matter.

Lola

1:10:26 - 1:10:38

That's good advice. So looking back, what would you say now, because now you have all these different chapters, do you think you can, do you see a common thread that's been consistent?

Ukonwa

1:10:39 - 1:10:42

Of course your faith has always been there, but it's evolved over

Lola

1:10:42 - 1:10:45

time. But has there been a part of you that's just shown up

Ukonwa

1:10:45 - 1:10:48

consistently without you even knowing it? What do you look like in

Lola

1:10:48 - 1:10:49

all the chapters?

Ukonwa

1:10:50 - 1:11:29

Yeah, it's funny, my friends that have been my friends for a long time, they were like, you have not changed at all. So I think that I have been consistent through it all. And sometimes it got me in trouble because I wasn't willing to change who I was or bend or break who I was to fit whatever situation I was in in the moment. I've always been very dogged about that. There are a lot of things that I'm flexible about. a friend of mine, Julia, I think she did a TED talk that's actually really brilliant and she talks about knowing what your core is versus your flex.

Ukonwa

1:11:31 - 1:12:10

And so I think for me, the parts of me that make the without having, I didn't have Julia's language, but that has been clear for me for a really long time. And once I have that, I'm actually willing to flex a lot. So I can flex on a number of different things. Like people look at my career and they're like, you worked in beauty, then now you're in fashion. And then you also worked in entertainment. Like I've been, I've lived in like different continents and I've traveled to like 50 countries like I'm willing to flex on a lot of things and a lot of personalities and a lot of but my core though my core has been inflexible.

Ukonwa

1:12:11 - 1:12:19

And I didn't have the language, like Julia didn't give, I just met, you know, Julia, and like, now I know the language from her TED talk. And I told her like, this

Ukonwa

1:12:19 - 1:12:19

is brilliant.

Ukonwa

1:12:20 - 1:12:57

I wish I knew this earlier. But that core has been consistent throughout my life. And then outside of that core, I'm incredibly flexible. I'm like, Where do you want to eat tonight? Wherever you want to go. Like I literally, I'll wear whatever, I'll travel wherever, I'll eat almost whatever. I will work with whoever, I will, you know, switch jobs if I need to, industries, like all of that's been flexed. But like, but the core of what makes me me, the core that makes it possible to be who God put me on this earth to be and all the different aspects of that, I have been incredibly

Lola

1:12:59 - 1:13:04

So you mentioned friendship, just a second ago, and I just thought it was interesting because as

Lola

1:13:04 - 1:13:10

someone who was, I would call you corporate America famous, would you say it was either hard or

Ukonwa

1:13:12 - 1:13:19

easy to maintain the authentic kind of relationships throughout those transitions, right? Because you said you had the same friends. Yeah.

Lola

1:13:19 - 1:13:20

But it couldn't

Ukonwa

1:13:20 - 1:13:56

have been easy. Yeah. So I have different circles of friends. And I have like my core friend group. And that core friend group, once you get into that circle, it's hard to get in that circle. But once you get in that circle, you never get out of that circle. You will always be my friend. You don't get to choose to not be my friend. I would be like, whatever. who are in that core, they are in that core. They've been in that core for decades. Even if you're new into the core, if you make it into that core, it's like you were in

Lola

1:13:56 - 1:13:57

the core.

Ukonwa

1:13:58 - 1:14:39

I have a lot of people that I make friends very easily, and I'm a very friendly person. I make friends very easily, and so I make friends all the time. Over time, some people end up in the core, but for the most part, I have a lot of friends who are either on the next circle out of the circle after that. And so that part, I would say, I've always been very open to friendships, because it's really, it's one of the ways that I learned. It's one of the ways that I learned. And I learned about new Like I just, I met somebody yesterday and I was like, Oh my God, we're friends now.

Ukonwa

1:14:39 - 1:15:12

And they like introduced me to all these restaurants. I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't made friends with them. So yeah, I think it's one of the ways that I learn. It's one of the ways that I live. And it's one of the ways that just adds so much joy to my days. And so I think that's really important. But yeah, I'm the same. I'm the same person to all of those circles of people. I think it's just when it comes to prioritization, like, okay, if I had this weekend, who am I going to spend my weekend with?

Ukonwa

1:15:12 - 1:15:49

My core friends, I would drop anything and be there for those people. And I had to have that core because when I was an executive, I didn't have a lot of time. And so I could not maintain intentional relationships with so many literally impossible. And so at least that way I could say, okay, like these are my core friends. And for these friends, I would be willing to prioritize, you know, drop things that have dropped off, you know, change things that have dropped off a hat, cancel a meeting to have lunch. Like I would make whatever sacrifices were necessary for

Speaker 2

1:15:49 - 1:15:50

these friends in the

Ukonwa

1:15:50 - 1:16:22

core. And then I know that the friends outside of that, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I show up as the same person to all those people because I don't believe in changing more. But in terms of prioritization, I feel like I'm willing to sacrifice the most for the people that kind of like are doing life with you, like the people that are in that core. And I've found that to, it's really helped me kind of navigate. But I still, I make friends all the time. And you know this, I'll be like, I just made this friend!

Ukonwa

1:16:22 - 1:17:01

Like, now we're gonna go into this and be like, who is this person? When did You're going to love her. And we do. It works out. Yeah, it works. I'm like, trust me, you're going to love it. We're going to have fun. And yeah, like it's, that's the joy of life. Like that, that's the absolute joy of life and being open to all of those interconnections that you make with people throughout the day and all the joy and the experiences of that and the richness that that brings to And I hope that that continues to be a part of my life for as long as I

Lola

1:17:01 - 1:17:07

live. So all right, we're going to switch gears now, and we're going to go into the final part of this interview, which is the lightning round.

Ukonwa

1:17:07 - 1:17:08

And

Lola

1:17:08 - 1:17:08

so,

Ukonwa

1:17:10 - 1:17:10

quick answers. Do I need to

Lola

1:17:10 - 1:17:18

do anything? No, you're just answering questions. OK. OK. It's not the Jimmy Kimmel Fallon Show. OK. Let's do it. See, look juicy, babe.

Ukonwa

1:17:18 - 1:17:18

We

Lola

1:17:18 - 1:17:19

just said

Ukonwa

1:17:19 - 1:17:19

ask the

Lola

1:17:19 - 1:17:20

questions.

Ukonwa

1:17:21 - 1:17:23

Just ask the questions, you

Lola

1:17:23 - 1:17:25

know? Yeah. And don't overthink it. There's

Ukonwa

1:17:25 - 1:17:26

no wrong

Lola

1:17:26 - 1:17:31

answer. All right. The first thing is your personal mantra, what words do you live

Ukonwa

1:17:31 - 1:17:46

by? I had this on my bio for a very long time and I think it's pretty true. Work hard, play harder, pray hardest.

Speaker 2

1:17:52 - 1:17:54

A yellow shirt with

Ukonwa

1:17:54 - 1:17:55

the

Ukonwa

1:17:55 - 1:17:56

saying, got

Ukonwa

1:17:56 - 1:17:56

it.

Ukonwa

1:17:57 - 1:18:08

Done. What matters the most to you? We talked about legacy earlier, right? My faith and my family. Yeah.

Lola

1:18:08 - 1:18:11

If this applies, what would you say would be your greatest fear?

Ukonwa

1:18:14 - 1:18:22

My greatest fear, which led to what I'm doing right now, is getting to the end of my life and not doing what I love. That's

Lola

1:18:22 - 1:18:22

a big one.

Ukonwa

1:18:23 - 1:18:23

And

Lola

1:18:24 - 1:18:26

another is Brandon Coleman.

Lola

1:18:26 - 1:18:33

It's funny you said earlier that you don't believe in personal branding. That's going to be an interesting one for an executive marketer to

Ukonwa

1:18:33 - 1:18:33

say that.

Lola

1:18:34 - 1:18:36

But you know, if you could describe yourself as the Kadara woman.

Ukonwa

1:18:36 - 1:20:03

I don't know if we talked about this, but Kadara means destiny, right? In three words, what would those three words be? Describe myself? Yeah, three words. I'm trying to see how other people would describe me. How would I describe myself? I am fun-loving. I am direct. I am consistent. I like that. And that's why we're friends because you're direct. babies. What was the last thing you had to learn? What are you learning now? What am I learning now? My tech platform leverages a lot of our And that landscape is changing all the time. And so my team and I are just doing a lot of experimentation as to what aspect of artificial intelligence is interesting for us that we want to incorporate into Zeta and what aspects of it don't make sense for our platform.

Ukonwa

1:20:04 - 1:20:43

But you kind of have to learn and experiment across a number of different pieces to see what makes sense. So I would say, yeah, I'm learning a lot about AI right now. That's a cool one. And you already talked about your favorite book earlier, The Miles Morales, one of them. Do you have another one, a quote you'd like to share? Yeah, that is for sure. That book changed my life. And it's just like, if you don't know Miles Morales, just go and geek out on his videos and just watch his sermons and just listen to them and the wisdom that God gave that man is just, and he knows so much about a lot of things.

Ukonwa

1:20:43 - 1:21:22

It's not just biblical, it's also strategy. It's about relationships. It's about how to manage money. Like he was just gone too soon. And we're just so sad that he's no longer with us. But I would definitely recommend the book, In Pursuit of Purpose, but really any book written by Miles Monroe, any, any, any, Any video that he's, any podcast, like anything that he's done that was podcasted weren't available back then. But anything that you could get your hands on, Miles Monroe, I would say.

Lola

1:21:22 - 1:21:27

Yeah, I agree. That's a good one. And actually, I didn't know about that book he told me about. He told me about the book, funny enough, because

Ukonwa

1:21:27 - 1:21:28

I

Lola

1:21:28 - 1:21:29

bought it after he told me about

Ukonwa

1:21:29 - 1:21:29

it. Oh,

Lola

1:21:29 - 1:21:32

really? Because I think we did a book exchange. We did, like, I told you

Ukonwa

1:21:32 - 1:22:02

about it. Yeah, because you told me about Chase the Lion, which that was a good one. Yeah. All right, so this is good. So if you could go back in time, what would you tell your 20-year-old self? Because you're living in America. Yeah, what would I tell my 20-year-old self? I'd be like, girl, it's going to be okay. Like, just chill. But I mean, one of the words I probably would have used to describe myself is intense. Like, I've always been an intense person. I tell people I'm a sprinter, not a marathoner. Like, I've never been the

Speaker 2

1:22:02 - 1:22:03

even-keeled,

Ukonwa

1:22:03 - 1:22:04

just steady as she

Speaker 2

1:22:04 - 1:22:04

goes.

Ukonwa

1:22:05 - 1:22:37

So I have a feeling that I would tell her to chill and she wouldn't chill anyway, but I would still tell her to be like, it actually works out okay. It actually works out okay. So all those things that you used to worry about, will it happen for me? Will you do this? Will you do that? You're like, the choice that you made, and in some cases, the unpopular choice among your circle, among your corporate colleagues, the choice that you made to serve God with your whole heart and your whole life, is the best choice you ever made.

Ukonwa

1:22:37 - 1:23:18

Because in making that choice, you got everything else. And so one of the things that God said to me was kind of like a love story to me. He says, they say you can't have it all, but it's not true. You can have it all if you put me first. And it's really true because in serving him, he gave me all the things that I did end up becoming a wife to. to be a loving man. I did end up having a son and he's an incredible person. I did end up traveling to all these different places.

Ukonwa

1:23:18 - 1:23:55

I did end up living my dream of being an entrepreneur. I did end up being a designer that I had dreamt of. I did end up doing everything that I imagined that I would do. And the world makes you believe that if you're so passionately after him, you will sacrifice all of these things. And it's not true. If you trust him, It may not happen in the timing that you want, but when you stop and you kind of look back at it, you see that he gives you everything that you've ever asked for. He's for sure always there.

Ukonwa

1:23:55 - 1:24:05

And he gives you everything that all those dreams that he put in your heart, he'll give you every single one. That's a good one. All right. So this is a good one.

Lola

1:24:06 - 1:24:09

What would you consider your greatest achievement to date then?

Ukonwa

1:24:13 - 1:24:14

being the wife of nostalgia.

Lola

1:24:17 - 1:24:20

All right.

Lola

1:24:22 - 1:24:25

And then looking back, what would you say about destiny and pursuing your purpose?

Ukonwa

1:24:31 - 1:25:17

I think that one of the things that I've learned is that We always think of achieving our destiny like it's this, it's a pursuit. And we always assume that it's going to be, it's going to take a lot of hard work. But kind of the visual that I've been using for my life is following my purpose and following my destiny. It's almost been like floating in a river. where the river has momentum and it has currents, but if you actually flow with the current, you can get to your destination, but with a lot of kind of like joy and without a lot of exertion.

Ukonwa

1:25:19 - 1:26:00

And so I've learned that like, The easiest path in life actually is following your destiny, is following the current. What is hard is knowing that you're supposed to be doing something else. You know the current is going this way when you're trying to go that way. That is the quickest way to exertion and exhaustion. It's exertion and it's exhaustion. And what I would challenge you to do is, follow and you will discover like it's not like this is my purpose like just follow the path like just follow and you won't know the full path but as it's revealed to

Ukonwa

1:26:00 - 1:26:00

you

Ukonwa

1:26:01 - 1:26:01

give into

Ukonwa

1:26:01 - 1:26:02

it

Ukonwa

1:26:02 - 1:26:44

just like when you're flowing through the river you don't know what twists and turns whether it's going to be a rock but you just know the current and so if you just find the current and you just stay with the current, you'll find all these twists and turns along the way, but that is the fastest way to get from, because you can go faster within the current. You can still roll within the current and go even faster, but it would take much less, much less energy than trying to float or swim against the current. And so that would be my biggest advice on purpose and on destiny is you may not see the entire picture, but just find the current and float in the current.

Ukonwa

1:26:45 - 1:26:55

And that is the quickest way to your purpose and to your destiny. And it's without exertion or it may have exertion, but it doesn't have exertion.

Lola

1:26:55 - 1:26:55

Yeah,

Ukonwa

1:26:56 - 1:27:14

that is so well said. for the next 15 years of our friendship. What are we going to be doing together? I don't know. We're going to love each other and our families. Yes. We are going to travel. Yes, on the big one. We are going

Ukonwa

1:27:14 - 1:27:14

to

Ukonwa

1:27:15 - 1:27:40

Eat! No, we're gonna eat and then Italy, that's true. I love Italy, so of course we're gonna travel and then we're both foodies, so we have to eat a lot. That's why your homework yesterday was great, because you got us some more restaurants. Yeah, exactly. So we're gonna eat a lot. How about this? We're gonna travel and eat while we're traveling. I love that. And then we'll wear clothes that

Lola

1:27:40 - 1:27:50

give us room for exposure. There you go. Well, this has been amazing. I appreciate your friendship. I appreciate you for being on this platform. And I think

Ukonwa

1:27:51 - 1:28:00

this was way more than I could have expected. So thank you for just doing this. I am truly on your

Ukonwa

1:28:00 - 1:28:02

podcast.

Ukonwa

1:28:02 - 1:28:07

I know. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I love you, girl.

Lola

1:28:13 - 1:28:13

Thank

Ukonwa

1:28:13 - 1:28:15

you. All right, that's a wrap.

Lola

1:28:17 - 1:28:49

Well, whew, that was a wrap on season two's premiere. And it's also our very first video podcast episode of the season. I'm still taking in all the wisdom Okonwa just shared with us. You know, there's something so powerful about hearing someone say, I was at the peak of my career, but I knew there was something else I was meant to do. Okowa's journey reminds us that success isn't just about impressive titles or collecting things. It's also about having the courage to follow your own purpose, even when it means eating your ego on a plate, in her words.

Lola

1:28:50 - 1:29:22

I love what she said about finding your current. Life doesn't have to be an exhausting upstream battle. Woo, that was deep for me. When you're in alignment with your purpose, it feels more like flowing with the river. Yes, there are going to be twists and turns, rocks along the way, but you're moving with less effort and more joy. And so whether you're facing challenges as the only one in your workplace, considering a major pivot in your career, or just simply trying to live more authentically, I hope this conversation gave you some clarity and courage for your own path.

Lola

1:29:23 - 1:29:54

And if you enjoyed this episode, please share with someone who might need to hear it. And don't forget to subscribe if you don't want to miss the rest of our amazing tool lineup. And oh, one more thing, starting this Friday, I will share the reason why I started this podcast and my journey to building Kadara Media. And so until next time, this is Lola reminding you that your destiny is waiting, and all you need to do is find your current and flow with it. This podcast was created, produced, and recorded by Lola Soyeboo Harris and sound edited by Mo Isu.

Lola

1:29:54 - 1:29:57

The Kadara Woman Podcast is a production of Kadara Media.