Fighting Forward: Lesley Sackey on Boxing, Healing, and Empowering Women 🇬🇭

Hey there.

Welcome to the Kadara Woman Podcast, where.

We amplify the untold impact-driven stories of remarkable African women making waves across the globe. I'm your host, Lola Soyebo Harris. We've got an incredible conversation lined up with Lesley Sackey. The story is going to leave you feeling inspired.Lesley's journey is full of fascinating contradictions and unexpected turns. Can you imagine, like someone who once avoided PE becoming an international boxing champion? Well, that's just the beginning of a remarkable story.In this episode, we explore how boxing became not just a support for Lesley, but a powerful tool of transformation both for herself and now the thousands of other women through her organization called Fight Forward.And you will also hear about pivotal moments that shaped her path, how she's combining her athletic experience with social entrepreneurship and her mission to create healing spaces for women who have faced significant challenges.She shares some powerful insights about resilience, finding your purpose through adversity, and what it takes to balance motherhood while building multiple ventures.So get comfortable and listen in as we dive into this empowering conversation that might just change how you think about overcoming your own challenges and finding your strength.

All right, well, Leslie, welcome. Welcome to the Kada Woman Podcast. Thank you for being here today.

Thank you.

Awesome. How are you doing?

I'm very excited to be talking with you this evening.

Well, I'm excited as well. I'm excited as well. And so one thing that I love to get started with is exploring your roots. So I know that you are Irish. Ghanaian. Correct.And I'm curious to know how your dual heritage influenced the woman you are today.

Wow. My dual heritage, how did it influence? I think it's something I'm really proud of, which I wasn't always growing up, to be honest.As you can imagine, it's sometimes quite a confusing time sitting between two cultures. And I learned to find my way. And I definitely feel like the both of these cultures have really raw histories of rebellion and fighting spirit.And I feel really blessed to have both of that energy and ancestry, you know, as part of my genetic makeup. And I do think it does shape the way I respond to situations, to the way I respond in the boxing ring.And I definitely feel like, given my heritage, boxing was probably the only, the only way forward at some point.

Well, we'll definitely get into boxing, but there was something you said about it wasn't always that way. You weren't always proud. Do you want to touch on that a little bit?

I think it's not necessary that I wasn't always proud. I was lucky.Although, you know, my mother was Irish and my dad's from Ghana, she actually really was very intentional about us being deeply connected with our African roots and would, you know, make sure that we absolutely had a connection and understood where we came from, which I think is really important and I think is sometimes missed when white mothers are raising brown children, to be honest. And she'd make an effort and understand that my hair is different.So she would go to black hairdressers and make sure that my hair was being taken care of and things like that.And I look back and during those times when, you know, the other side of that is her kind of walking into spaces where she was the minority and, like, in order to advocate and make sure that I had the care I needed.So I had a lot of respect for that process and for her being aware that she's raising a mixed child, which sounds obvious, but I think this is, you know, something that sometimes was missed when you're. You're raising a child who is. Is different to you. Right. And then, you know, in England during the time, like, growing up, being African was not cool.Being from the Caribbean, it was. It was cool, but African, there was something just. Yeah, it wasn't embraced and there was. It was kind of a lot of just.It just wasn't cool to be from Africa. And now it's. It's, of course, super cool, but I think that's just about.If we were shown, like, all the connection to our culture and what that really means and represents and it's not diluted by particular stories and experiences, then what's there not to be proud of, I guess. So I think it was just navigating that as a child and just finding your way as a mixed person.It's kind of like I identify with brown people because I. This is me. Right. So it's. But then sometimes you don't quite fit in and it's like navigating that as well.And so, yeah, I really like the journey that I've arrived at with who I am.

I love that because I think you touched on.Part of the reason why this podcast had to exist was there was a time when being African wasn't cool, especially when he stepped out of the continent and there were kids who had to grow up with that in their backdrop. You're one of those kids and, you know, your mom was white, right. And she had to navigate that space as well. But she.It sounds like she put you first and your siblings first before her own well being. Did you know that she was walking into spaces where she may not feel comfortable. Did you see that growing up or did that.

Yeah, no, I think I put two and two together. I was. As I was older, sometimes this thing, walking into black hairdressers is not always a comfortable place, even when you are black.So it's like, so imagine being a white woman walking with a black child and then being like, can you do their hair? So that's the other side of it. And, you know, that's just.I look back now because I have understanding of it as an adult at the time, I'm just being taken to get my hair done. I remember.I even remember a hairdresser actually saying to me, asking me while she was doing my hair, it was like, do you feel more white or more black?

And, oh, my goodness.

And if I can't have been more than 12, 12, 13, maybe. And. And I remember. I think I was from, like. Like, I don't know.And I remember, even though I didn't fully understand the question, I understood as an adult that that was off. It was like, what kind of question is that? Right.So even though I didn't know how to respond in that moment, I understood intrinsically that was wrong. That feels. It feels inappropriate for you to ask that. But I didn't have the words to articulate that.But only as an adult to look back and say, okay, I understand what that was.But, you know, my granny used to send me clothes, so, you know, Ghanaian dresses and clothes and prints, which I look now, and the light was so stunning, and I dressed my kids in those. But at the time I'd be wearing them and I get laughed at. So then I was like, I don't like this. I don't want to wear this anymore. Or so it's just.

Yeah, I have another question there. But before I go too far, I'm actually going to try and stay in this early part of your childhood.And I'm curious to know, you know, what the young Leslie dreamt of becoming, growing up with all of this going on around you. Do you remember?

I remember that I was. I felt. I was quite. I felt wise before my time again as an adult. I look back and I feel like I was.Yeah, I was wise and I enjoyed my own company a lot. I had friends, but I enjoyed. I enjoyed creativity and kind of being in my own energy. And I was very entrepreneurial from. From a young age.I started a business in primary school selling friendship bands, and then I'd sell them and make money to buy the Threads. We called it strings. I always like to. I always like to catch your name.I was in a marketing brain, so I think from then I was entrepreneurial marketing. And then I used to sell. They used to give away free newspapers on the estate where I lived. And I'd sell them to people.Me and my friends would sell them to people on the way home and people would just humor us and give us, like, some change. I used to walk dogs in the area, so I was always kind of looking for ways to make money or like, just.I think I was very entrepreneurial and I like to do many things. I was into theater, so at one point I was at performing arts school.

Is that the Brit school?

The Brit school, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yes. You know, so, yeah, I was at the Brit school.And so I was at one point and I was doing stuff with the Young National Theatre, so I was going down that route. But then I was. I was pretty academic at one point and done really well at school. But I just. I liked freedom. I liked. I didn't. I liked to.If I wanted to explore and do something, then I want to go and do that. And then if I decide I want to do something else and I want to do that. And I think that's kind of how my journey took me.So there's many things I wanted to be. A boxer was not one of them.

Oh, yes, we're going to get into that.

Yeah, A boxer was not one of them, but, yeah, there were many things I wanted to be. And I think I just like the idea of being the full expression of myself.

You always knew that growing up.

No, I think I know that now, looking back. I think I know that now, looking back.

I love that because I think every. I also believe that everything is supposed to be, or some of it has shown up somewhere in your life, if you're paying attention. Right.To your point about being able to reflect back and know that, oh, you know, this has always been part of me and I can do this. And you've always been entrepreneurial. So let's talk about boxing. Right. Because.Let's see, you actually used to get a note to avoid PE growing up, and then you became a champion boxer and then you actually found a way to use boxing to transform the lives of women.

Yeah.

So how did all of that come about?

How did all that come about? Yeah, I didn't like PE at school. I didn't participate. The only thing I did do that I was good at was netball. That was it and everything. Netball.

What's that ball. Is that like a British thing?

It's a very British thing. When I think about. In that, it's basically like, when I'm going to explain this to you, you're going to be horrified. But it's basically basketball.But you can't move with the ball.

No. I don't get it.

Yeah, I mean, I guess. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people would say the same. It's. You can't move with the ball. So the idea is it's exactly like a similar setup.Like you have a court and nets and two teams have to shoot to get in, but you can't travel with the ball. So you have to be on the spot, throw to someone available, run, move. So it's the same principle effectively, but you can't use your legs.It's literally basketball without being able to run. Yeah, you have to throw the ball, basically.

Do they still play that sport?

It's a big sport here. Yeah, but that was one thing I was good at. I wasn't into sports at school. Yeah. And. And I didn't get into sports until my early 20s.I wanted to get fit, but I didn't like the idea of going to the gym. I thought that seemed boring. And I was at a family friend's house and they said, why don't you try boxing? They've been doing it for years.And there's a gym up the road. Why don't you go? And I was like, oh, okay. And so I went and had. It's exactly how you imagine an inner city boxing gym to be.This old church building, very atmospheric, pictures all over the walls of boxes. You've got this boxing ring in the middle. Beautiful, stunning building. And then, you know, you walk in and then the sound and the smell hits you.Like, it's just a very male space.

The funk.

Just the smell of hard work, hard work. Just. Just like, whoa. And so I was like, what is this? And. But they had like, Keep Fit.They had amateur boxing sessions, but they also had Keep Fit for people in the community wanted to just like have a boxing workout. So I started there and I had my first session. It was two hours and I died. I was like, wait, two hours.The first time, that's how long the sessions were. It was from 7:30 to 9:30 during the weeks. So it was, you know.And I think you go there teaching you how to stand, how to hold your hands and that kind of stuff. So. But what I loved was that it didn't feel like two hours. It felt exhausting. And I Felt like I was going to die, but it felt.It felt new, it felt exciting. And that no two sessions were the same, which is what I liked, because I don't like to be bored. I like to be kind of kept on my toes and challenged.And so this was perfect for me. And then I started noticing results, so just the level of fitness and then my body changing and just my mindset changing.And I was still only going to the keep fit classes. And I think one of the coaches was like, you have a natural talent. Why don't you try the amateurs?And I'd seen the amateur boxing class because they finished before we started the keep fit class. I was like, no way I can do that. That's exhausting. That's the next level. And they were like, okay, go and just try.And the person who started the gym, his name is called Mr. A. He started this gym. 50 is now 50 years old. And he started this. I digress a little bit. But the story is important because he's Ghanaian.He's from Jamestown, the same place where my dad is from.

Wow.

The same place that is particularly rich in boxing history and heritage is Jamestown and Bookham is. It's. There's boxing and football in Ghana, the two things. And this particular area in Accra is famous for boxing. So we're both.My dad's from Jamestown. Mr. A, he's called Mr. Ake, is from Jamestown. So he's this, like, coach. And then the story begins where he. He had many sons.And it was in the time of this, around the 70s, where it was like, no dogs, no blacks, no Irish. That's how it was in London at the time. And so he decided there was nowhere for his boys to train. He'd had, you know, wanted to train them.So he started training them on the landing of his building, in the hall of his. His tower block.And then bit by bit, kind of it just accumulated and he was just chaining this, like, whole community of boys on the landing in this kind of residential block. So in the end he found a space and then it became known as the All Stars.And it was particularly famous because that's where all the black kids would go because there was an Irish, because there was nowhere else for them to go. And it became. He. He definitely became a local legend. And at the time, there weren't female boxers at all in the gym training for amateurs.And it was me and another girl. And he was like, we've never had girls, but come on. And the story began. It was.He is literally Million Dollar Baby in the sense of he was the father figure that took me under his wing and just championed me, advocated for me, cheered me on, told me off all of those things, you know, encouraged me, motivated me, and challenged me and. And held me accountable. And the story began. I started boxing, and he said, why don't you have a fight? And I said, okay, then.And I had my first fight and lost. But it was amazing. It was the best loss. I had nothing to lose in the sense of I've never. I've never boxed before. It was a home show.The crowd was there. I remember that I was too tired and my shorts were too tight, but I just had the most amazing feeling. And the first two rounds, I came out and I was.I'm winning. You know, everyone's cheering my name and I'm coming out and I'm like, inside, I'm like, yes, this is amazing.I'm punching, throwing shots, and they're landing, and I'm doing so well. And then suddenly, it's like someone turned off a switch. And my mind was working, but my body wasn't correlating.So it was saying, put your hands up, Liz. Put your hands up. And I couldn't my hands up because I was so exhausted. So exhausted. And so they had to stop the fight, and I lost.But I learned everything. I learned that first fight. I learned how to pace myself. I learned how to, you know, how important nutrition was.I learned about wearing shorts that don't need to be so tight. I just. I just learned so much. And it was enough to go on to use that, to then go on to win.And so it was invaluable, and it was liberating because there was no pressure. Right. It's just my first. I didn't know what to expect. I didn't even know if I wanted to box. Okay, I'll have a fight. I'll try it. So it was.It was powerful, and it really set the foundation for my boxing journey.

Wow, that is inspiring, because in losing, you actually won absolutely so much in that moment, and if anything, it propels you forward. So before we go too far, I'm curious, how did your family take to this idea of you becoming this amateur boxer? Because one thing is, you're not in.You're getting notes of PE and the next thing you know, I want to be a boxer. And, oh, by the way, I'm also going to do a fight now. Like, walk me through that.

Yeah, I think, you know, my. My family are supporters of me, so I think Whatever the thing is, they're like, we support you. Right.So that's, that's something that I've experienced and also kind of, I think they had. There's a. Nothing really surprises them when it comes to me. I think there's that as a healthy dose of, okay, we did this, you know, which is great.In terms of my boxing journey, I was, at this time I was working in music, so I was working in music. And so that's late night networking. It's the opposite of a boxing lifestyle. So but at this time, it's kind of early on and Mr.A is like, you know, why don't you have a fight? I lose. He's like, okay, why don't you enter the championships, the British championships called the ABAs. And I was like, okay, then.And so I ended up having two fights and one day box tour twice and I ended up winning. So I ended up then suddenly becoming British champion.

Was that your first win?

That was my first win. No, my first three wins because you have to. So first two. And so then suddenly the thing just started taking a life of its own.And so then it was like, okay, well, as a result of that, then people are noticing me. So England start to see me and like, why don't you try out for the England team?So then I try out for the England team and then, you know, start doing training camps with them and start boxing in tournaments. Representing England. Then gb. Team gb, which is different. It's. It's kind of like you having the GB is, is all England Island, Scotland, Wells.

So it's a Great Britain.

Great. There you go. I didn't, I didn't need to give you a geography lesson, Lola, but sometimes it is confusing in terms of competition wise.So then Team gb and then I start representing the country on that level and then I go to the European Championships and then I win. I get a gold medal. And then that was it.It kind of solidified my journey of this unexpected route where, you know, I'm working in music and then I'm in boxing. And suddenly it's becoming. This is, this is my focus. So I made a decision. I was waiting for 2012.At this time, boxing hadn't been announced in the 2012 Olympics. So it's around, this is around 2008. So we're ready for preparation.And so we're trying to find out if they're going to allow females to box in the Olympics. I made a decision and said, while that's happening, I'm going to dedicate a year to boxing.So I'm going to stop working because the juggle of music, networking, marketing and late nights was not quite correlating with boxing trying to make a decision. And I'm going to give myself a year to give everything to boxing and see what that looks like.

So this is an 08, right? After you won?

Yes, after I won. Okay, after I won.And then in that time I saw an advertisement from the BBC looking for five female athletes to compete with each other and travel the world. I was like, this is me, I can do this.And so I auditioned and it was a grueling like two, three hours by army sergeants, like taking through your paces. But was was amazing was that I'd never been in a position I didn't know what I was good at in terms of physically. I only knew boxing.And boxing is very multifaceted. Yes, you're kind of moving and boxing the ring, but it requires cardio, you know, strength and conditioning, flexibility, mobility.So I had all these components and was like, yes, these are all different things that I can do now. Which I didn't know because I wasn't into sports at school.So I got selected and then went on a six month adventure with the BBC where I filmed a TV program for them, competing with local tribes all around the world. Their local sport, we had to learn their local sport and then compete against each other and them. So that was a journey.We went to the Amazon, I raced water buffalo, I wrestled Amazonian women, I done endurance running in the mountains in Mexico. And so this is all whilst I'm still waiting to find out if, you.

Know, this was also within your first year that you dedicated to boxing.

Yeah, yeah. So it was still. Because at this time I was still able to come and go travel and I still had to maintain fitness.And so it was still part of the vision, it was just maybe a little detour, but it was still in the realm of, of ultimately I'm just waiting for this announcement because then it meant there'd be funding and all that kind of stuff. So then they called an Olympic female selection team.So Nicola Adams, Savannah Marshall, Sasha Jonas, all these amazing boxers were part of that and I was part of that team as well.And my journey sadly came to an end because they'd announced that there were three weight categories that they were going to allow female box into the Olympics, but only three weight categories. And so where my weight was, I, it was, I didn't sit. It was too heavy for me to go up and too much for me to Go down.And there were people who already had secured their spots for a long time in those areas. So, you know, what was a newly acquired dream suddenly disappeared. But I was grateful. I was grateful for the journey and experience.And at that point, boxing was so much. It was so ingrained in me that it, like, boxing is life. And so continued my path.

All right, so we have a lot to unpack there, and I appreciate that journey. And so I'm going to go back to the beginning. How long from when you decided to become an amateur boxer to winning the European Union Championship?How many years was that?

I think a matter of five years, something like that.

So. But you were still doing this on the side, though. You were working in the music industry, but kind of just juggling.And then the decision after you won that big one, you were like, you know, I'm going to give it one year.And then you had the opportunity with the BBC, and then you also waiting on the Olympics to make a decision, and then you literally are training towards this decision, and then it comes crashing. How did you handle that moment? Because like you said, in your words, it was a dream that just wasn't a dream anymore.And it seemed like there was nowhere else to go from a professional boxing career.

Is that correct at that point? Yes, because there weren't, you know, female boxing was pretty new at that point.So there were, you know, the women that turned over, as we say, or become professionals. It wasn't a respected scene at that time, and so me turning professional was not really an option.But what I will say is that, you know, looking back now, it wasn't as devastating as you would imagine, simply because it was a newly acquired dream and I'd done so much in such a short space of time.It felt like, okay, fine, in the sense of, yeah, I could continue, but I think I'd done a lot and I felt good about where I'd gotten to, considering it was new and my dream kept evolving. Right. So then I was like, okay, fine, then, you know, I'm not gonna do this. I'm gonna now start a business, and actually I want to have babies.And so it didn't feel as devastating. And also, maybe, if I'm very honest, a little bit of relief. Because at that point, the pressure is.The pressure and the commitment and the sacrifices is, you know, it's serious, especially for the Olympics.

So. So it sounds like, were you married at that time, but you didn't have babies?

I was in part, yeah. I was in partnership.

Okay, all right. So that happened during partnership, it worked out because of other things going on in your life.You'd made other decisions that you could go forward. You mentioned you're going to start a business.

Yeah.

Which was the one before Fight Forward, correct? Yes. Boxing Boutique. So how long were you in Boxing Boutique for?

So there's a small journey before that. I. So I found out I wasn't in the Olympics, and I was kind of. There is a kind of no man's land, like a gray area of, like, what am I doing now?Like, boxing has been my life for, you know, for the last few years. And so I kind of was still training, and Mr. A was like, why don't you have one more fight, see how you feel. So we just scheduled a fight. It wasn't.It wasn't a competition fight, was just like a local fight just to, you know, have a move around and see. And so I was due to fight, say, on the Saturday and on the Tuesday, I'd found out I was pregnant.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah. So just as I'm working out, you know, do I still want to carry on boxing? Is it over for me? Who knows? And I just. I just couldn't get it together.I was like, what is wrong with me? And I remember. I remember I was. I just. And I came crying to Mr. A in the office and saying. I just, you know, and he was like, you're pregnant.And I was like.

He knew.

He knew. And the craziest thing is that I. I considered boxing. I was like, well, you know, get.That's how deep it was in me at that time was that, you know, I won't take body shots. I'll just move around. And now I reflect and think, it wasn't even a championship fight. Like, why would I even ever contemplate that?But that's because it's the athlete mindset of, like, we're. We're still in this. We're doing this.

Right, right. That drive. So. And before we go far, you opened the door for females coming to Mr. A's boxing gym. Right. I'm guessing more females came through.

Yeah. You and the other lady. I would definitely say that was. Yeah, that was part of the process and showing. Actually, I. I showed success as well.This is what it can look like. And actually, there were no other male champions in the gym at. At that time. So I was able to say, you know, and Mr.A really, really celebrated that and celebrated me and really, you know, made a fuss of me and advocated for me, which was important.

Yeah, No, I love that. I think that's inspiring too, because he, he showed up early at the right time and push you forward. And so we talked about the box and boutique.

So the boxing boutique. So then here I am, I find out I'm pregnant. So there's no boxing fight.

No.

And then at that point I was like, I still want to be in boxing. And I always would love a space.I feel like the boxing services that are on offer at the moment for women are watered down or like kind of boxer size, which is no disrespect to those types of activities.But I felt like if you wanted to learn authentic boxing training, there was, there was no, you know, I, I grew up with boys, so I feel like I had a resilience to walk into the gym knowing that it was a very sometimes hostile environment. Right. And so I was, I wanted to create a space that didn't compromise on the authenticity of boxing training, but in a female friendly way.And so the boxing boutique was born.

That was more of just another female oriented gym, correct?

Yeah.

All right. Then we get to Fight Forward.And you know, I always say that, you know, for the women I've spoken to, there's always this one time, this pivotal moment where they just get this clarity on what they're meant to be doing with their lives. And I feel like from just my little interaction with you, Fight Forward was that moment.And I'm curious to know how you got to that moment with Fight Forward.

So how I got to the moment with Fight Forward is that I had been in a relationship for about seven years and had left.It was abusive, and so I had left and felt like the following few years after that were just chaos, to be honest, and just having to navigate and just be in survival mode. And I felt like I wanted to connect with what made me feel good, what made me feel empowered. And so I thought to myself, I want to box.I'm going to have one last fight. I was turning 40 and I hadn't boxed for 10 years. I'd had three babies, a hip replacement, and a foot operation as well.And so, yeah, I came up with a bright idea to, I know what it is, I'm going to box. But really, truthfully, it was about a reclamation of myself. And boxing was a very physical example of that.I decided, I'm going to train for a fight. I'm turning 40 after 40. Amateur boxing rules state that you can't have, you can't fight after 40 after your 40th year. So I was turning 40 that year.That was two years ago. That was in January 2022 and I trained and my birthday was in May, so.So I trained for my fight and decided I'm going to have it at All Stars where I had my very first fight. It's full circle moment. I'll raise some money for the Women's Trust, which was a local domestic abuse charity who I'd gone to for support.And again, as in my boxing journey, it just snowballed.And instead of me just featuring in a local home show of All Stars, I worked with another amazing female pioneer in boxing called Terry Kelly, who was putting on shows and championing female boxers and still does. She has a business called this Girl Can Box.And she was like, why don't you put on an all female show and we'll get the best of, you know, amateur book, like really make it a showcase of amazing talent. And I was like, yeah, but I'm training in it and now I'm going to run this event. And she's like, look, we'll work together, we're going to do this.And the Fight Back was born. So the Fight Back was this all female show that I was gonna box in, showing the best of female, female talent.And then the conversation went further of, you know, well, you're gonna donate the money to the Women's Trust and you know, why don't you set something up? Because, wow.I'd realized in my journey, as amazing as these organizations are, there were still gaps in terms of the care and things that I couldn't get or access to, to because they're overwhelmed and under resourced and.And so Fight Forward was born and I decided to set it up as a not for profit, a community interest company and use boxing as a tool to support survivors out of abuse. Purely because I'd realized in my own journey how valuable a tool it was whether I'd boxed or not before. Just in terms of.There's something very powerful about, you know, the act of boxing, whether you're hitting something or not, just to know how to hold your hands, how to stand. It really is a very physical power pose, right?So it's really just about learning how to reconnect with that in yourself when that's lost, when you've left a challenging situation, everything is fragmented. And so it's just about helping bring you back together. And that's what that process was for me.And so I was, I tried and tested it and was like, I want to show and share this with more women and just to create community. And that's how it started.

The impetus, though, was a couple of things. One was you were coming off of a domestic violence incident, and then you were trying to empower yourself or re.Empower yourself, and boxing was your go to.Was it an immediate realization that, you know what, I'm just going to go straight to what I know, which is boxing, or did you have to heal before you even realize I can use boxing to heal? Were you trying other things to heal and then you came back to what you knew, which was boxing?

I think healing from abuse is an inya. And it's. I think it's probably.I say this in the most positive way, I guess a lifetime journey, you know, and it kind of brings up different things at different times. So I think for me, I just felt like I was. I wanted something different.I'd been in survival mode and kind of just existing and kind of getting by, and I wanted to break open because I'm an achiever. I'm used to doing exceptional things. And, you know, an exceptional thing could be like managing to get your kids every day to school.That's an exceptional thing. And I think we also. I have to be mindful because sometimes an athlete explain as well, is always like going for the.For the hard big thing and, you know, understanding that the winds exist all around you.

Right.

So that's also my journey still now. But I think for me, I just. I. It was like a shaking of stagnant energy.And so by saying, this is what I'm going to do, I was holding myself accountable. And I guess, yeah, boxing is the thing that I knew that could do that.And then the more I kind of have gone on this journey and process, there's a real connection with trauma living in the body and it moving with physical, like, it need, it requires. It's like calcified energy. And so it requires something intense to shift that movement.And that's what the Fightback program, which is what we deliver now to survivors, is all about, is using that boxing to shift that trauma and that stagnant energy so that it can come out. And when that happens, you're in a safe container of women who understand what that is.

Wow, that is amazing. I mean, sorry to hear what took you to get there, but it's like the building blocks are just there, just stacking up.And then it ended up just becoming this beautiful thing called Fight Forward, which I love the name, by the way. It's very positive. It's. It's very. It's encouraging.

Right.

You're just, you're fighting forward. There's still, to your point about it being a lifelong healing process, but you can do, you can be positive about that fight. Right.So something I saw on your website was that you have a goal to reach what, 100,000 women?

It was, it was 100,000 and it's at 10,000 at the moment. Over the next 10 years. Yeah. Our mission is to help 10,000 women survivors fight forward. So what does that look like?

And you've had this for two. You said two to three years, right? Going almost three years now.

Yeah, 2020 we started, but we didn't do anything for the first year and a half. It's only probably the last 12 months that we've been getting active and we've done two fight backs since just in that 12 months.

Okay, so what is the unexpected outcome or impact that you've had so far? Just even based on that short time with fight forward or fight back and.

Fight forward, the unexpected impact.I don't know if it was unexpected, but just to hear how needed community is for women, I mean, we just want to be heard and to be able to have safety to speak. It's not trauma bonding. It's not like, oh, just I'm talking. It's just, just to be heard.And just knowing that someone is, is like, yeah, space to cry. And so the unexpected, I guess, impact of that is their feedback of like, you know, the.I didn't expect the emotion to come out in the way it did and I am grateful for that. And so, yeah, it's powerful stuff. It's really powerful stuff.

It gives permission and is your gym open to every female or just people who are surviving domestic abuse?

So I don't. I work out of different gym spaces. I think, you know, the vision was perhaps to have a space, a gym space. And, you know, that would be amazing.And then to build community from that. So perhaps I'm working on that. I'm currently looking for a co founder at the moment, so that could be part of the vision.But at the moment, we work out of different spaces. We do workshops, we do events. And yes, they are those who identify as female and female. It's a female safe space.And again, I'm not in the business of excluding people. I'm in the business of providing what is needed for the group that I understand and can offer support to in this moment.And at the moment, that's women.

And I think there's one thing I wanted to touch on while we're still on this is that you mentioned you had three daughters, right?

Yes, three kids.

And obviously, I'm a parent as well, so I understand just the role of being a parent and trying to show up for them. But also, you're also growing in this journey, and I'm curious to know how your.How you being a mom has even influenced the work that you do and how you show up to them. Like, what is that conversation with your daughters like?

I think that was a big motivation as well, which I didn't mention in our earlier conversation of why I decided to do the fight back, why I needed to. I felt compelled to show my children an empowered version of me and to show, you know, not that I wasn't empowered before, but I wasn't.I didn't feel empowered, to be honest. And so it was important for me to show them what that looks like and to see me supported in that process as well.And when I say I was supported, I was. I had. The whole room was in the ring with me. It was just unreal. Unreal. The place was sold out. You know, people were cheering, crying, just. It was.And I won.

Oh, that's true. We didn't talk about that.

Yeah, I did. Exactly. I didn't even talk about the fact that I won. I stopped the girl in the second round. Which is it.Which is serendipitous, because my very first fight, I got stopped in the second round, so I. It was full circle. The same place. The very place I had my first fight was where I had my last fight, and I finished second round, stoppage.And this time I was the victor. So, yeah, beautiful. It was. So. Yeah, it was important for me.So that narrative was like, it's important that you see that I show up for myself, but also for you guys and that I have support. And this is. You know, I'm a fighter.

Yeah. I love.

Oh, wow.

I didn't know. See, I'm glad you said that because we would have missed that. That's a great story.

That's a tough. Yeah.

All right, so switching gears here, you've talked about supporting women at every stage of this journey, and I can tell that even from just how you're walking through your past and how I brought it to today. And, you know, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that you have a new venture called Pillow.

Yes.

Right. Do you want to talk about that?

I definitely want to talk about Pillow. So, you know, as you can see, the evolution of my journey takes me into spaces that I guess I'm not choosing. I feel Guided to or I find myself in.And so with Pillow, you know, Fight Forward, I'm building community and from an aspect of helping support women as well. And also in doing so, my own journey, I'm still benefiting from that process and engagement. Right.So with Pillow, I started thinking about my, my own journey and again, the things I didn't get or the things that were hard.And a big thing that came up for me was the time and energy spent having to navigate the many different organizations and having to retell my story over and over again.Not only is that retraumatizing because I'm having to repeat the person on the end of the phone or who I'm dealing with is desensitized and just, you know, and there's so much shame and humiliation attached to abuse and that those situations. And so you're constantly being exposed to this experience and also having to go to different places and it's time specific or location specific.And so you're constantly kind of hunting around to get support or understanding of things, whether it's like life administration, practical stuff to, you know, legal things.And so I, I had this thought that, you know, gosh, what if you could provide a space or a platform that dealt with all of those issues that whatever they, you know, arise in one space. I was training this person and I was telling them about FightForward and they said, oh, I have this person that I work with who's amazing and would.Is looking for something like this, like a. Something to support and get behind. And so I met up with them and we were focusing on Fight Forward.And then as we were kind of working and building that, it evolved into it being a platform and a space, creating a digital space for women that could access resources, connect with other women. And so we wanted to make it very separate because this was a business model and so Fight Forward is community interest.And that's the charitable arm Pillows, a for profit business model with purpose. We had to differentiate the two offerings and my partner actually came up with the name Pillow. And so Pillow was born.And the idea is, is that it's offering a lifetime of support, which is for survivors. So it's powering survivors to thrive. So what does that look like? I speak a lot about my journey of always being in this mode of survival.And I wanted to elevate, I wanted to thrive.And so what Pillow is doing is creating a space where you can access the resources to deal with the practical stuff and then also the tools to thrive, education, connection with other women. You know help with life admin and you're rewarded along the way for that journey.So it's an ecosystem of support when early tech startup currently seeking angel investment. So Q1 and Q2, I don't know when this comes out but we are raising and we are on our journey and ready to build our MVP and road test it.We're going business to business first which is working with organizations and companies.But the big vision is to be able to roll this out to people like you, me, whoever needs it, who can just subscribe and get all the tools they need in one place and connect with amazing women as well so that you're not, you know, the journey, the story of the thriver is really important for Pillow showing the survivor what's possible. So and again it's, it's kind of a reflection of my own journey which I felt compelled to do, which was step in the ring for myself.But in doing so I was able to show others what's possible.

And that is important. That is sometimes that's all someone else needs to see is if she can do it, then I can do it. I can make it through.And you're right, I think there's not, I don't. I mean I would imagine that if you're doing the work, that means there's not enough platforms talking about the after the survival mode.They just talk about surviving and getting out. But are there enough people saying no, you can actually be more, you can thrive.And so I think this is amazing work that you're doing and it's just interesting how boxing brought all of this to life. It's like the common thread. Right.So because you are an athlete or you're still an athlete, I should say, and then you became this social entrepreneur and then you're also a mother. I'm always curious about the mindset behind the drive. Right. And so what are some of your success habits?

My success habits? Moving movement 100%. It really, it's non negotiable.I have to move my body maybe at least four times a week exercise and that can look like running, that can look like 20 minutes on the peloton. If I can't get to a gym that's, you know, I try and go once a week to my boxing gym because just to be around the energy of it, I went last night.So where I can movement is non negotiable because it's important for my mental health, but it keeps me sharp and going for a run sometimes is when I have my best ideas and My thoughts around next steps and what to create and vision. And so that's. Movement is essential stillness, which again is a practice. I'm still working on meditation. It's just. But it's so valuable when I do.It's like how I feel about movement. It should be non negotiable. It should be. There should be a moment before you start your day where you move and you meditate and.And then you go out into the world. And the days when I do that, it's like unstoppable. Unstoppable. Unstoppable.But yeah, they're the things that I would say that the two main things and then everything else kind of is flexible, you know.

Yeah. So those are the things you're intentional about. How about how do you push through the worst times? How do you push through challenges?

I think I always have a relatable scenario with boxing to life. And so I feel like, how do I push through? It just depends on. It's not an option. Giving up is not an option.And I do think, I think it's a reservoir of resilience I've always had and even ancestral, to be honest, because both sides have a real fighting spirit. So I like to think that that is within me as well. So when I don't have the energy, I call on the ancestors and say, give me strength.So I think intrinsically there's a reservoir of resilience.But I think boxing really just kind of blew it open and showed me, you know, you have to go to your depths as an athlete where you're like, I cannot do any more. And you're reminded, actually you can. And I think that really set the foundation for me.But there's times, yeah, definitely, it's how you talk to yourself.

Yeah, that mindspeak, that mindset and trying to be positive and give yourself grace. Right. And so on that last note, how do you juggle being a mom, an entrepreneur, a tech startup founder? How do you do all of that?

You know, Leila, that's a great question.

Are you still trying to figure it out?

I'm still figuring it out.I don't think there's a, there's, there's, you know, the days when you think you've nailed it, like it's replaced with something else where you're like, ah, you know, sometimes you do feel like you're dropping the ball. I think what has worked.

What has worked in on those busy days when you have to be a mom or that week when you have to be a mom, tech Founder and entrepreneur, like, what is, what has worked?

I have to be mindful because there's something in me that kind of thrives at the ridiculousness of getting everything done that seems impossible. And so, and I think a good example was the first fight back.So I even said to myself, les, if you get through this, please remember how like, you can do literally anything. Like, I was mothering. I'd never trained whilst having children, as in training for a fight.So the freedom in the sense of the amount I could train and just go for a run and do that, that wasn't available anymore. So that was the first challenge of just actually having three small humans to take care of whilst training.So here I was training for a fight, mothering, and then having to put on an actual event, so a full event. And it wasn't just an event. I really wanted people to have a beautiful experience.So then I was getting sponsorship from Boxraw to make sure they had the most amazing goodie bags, the dj, you know, like, I wanted to create the whole thing. We had ring girls. Like, my children ended up like holding up the ring cards.And so I was doing that and then actually having kind of the mindset to be like, what am I doing? I'm going to be 40, my body is tired. You haven't fought for 10 years. Like, honestly, this is too much.And it got to a point where I was like, if I can just pull this off. And I. And then I planned also I had an after party planned afterwards. I mean, that was the whole point.I'd done the whole thing anyway, was just for the after party. And there was a sense of kind of pride, of like, that was ridiculous and not sustainable. So it's both. I have to be mindful.I enjoy the, you know, pressure is a privilege, right? And so I enjoy delivering and being like, I can get it done. But now I'm learning that it doesn't always have to be like that.You know, we can train smart, not.

Always hard, just so. Just because you can get it done doesn't mean it's sustainable. And it's probably. It's not the smartest way either.

But I'm going to give you another boxing scenario, which is in boxing we train in rounds, which is why I love. It's three minutes on one minute rest. And the idea is that in those three minutes you absolutely give your all.You work hard knowing that you're going to get a minute rest and then you go again and then you stop and you go again. That's for A short period of time. Right. But that's not sustainable. So you can do that and it's very effective, but it's not.That's for 12 rounds or three rounds or five rounds. And it's the same principle that's effective for a short period of time, but over time it's not sustainable. You can't keep operating like that.Something's gonna give. And so I think that's what I'm learning.

Well, I mean, I can attest to my short experience with boxing that I did not rest for one minute. I rested like longer than one minute and then it took me forever to get back into the little rounds that they tell you to do. And I was just.I was just hopeless. It was just a mess. But I've experienced boxing, but I do know for my little short, I didn't last long, Leslie. Like, I didn't.But I do see how it can be empowering. There's something in that energy that just. And I think where I got stuck was the one that you do really fast.

The end, I think. Yeah, yeah. And I was.

I had no coordination to save my life.

It was horrible.

I think it really does depend on your coach as well. So I think.

Well, it was self driven. They just tell you to go around.

Yeah. See, and I think. Yeah, I think there's. That's the thing. It's just, just even. It's not necessarily.Not every person wants to fight or even hit something. They're like, that's the last thing I want to do.But just if you can just have the feeling of even putting on the gloves, it's like, that can sometimes be enough.

Oh, I liked it.

I liked. It was a little fast one where you do. That's what I was then it was. I was like, this is not working, Nola. Like, the coordination is off.All right, well, I appreciate you sharing that and sharing your experience. All right, so we're going to jump into the fun part, which is what I call the lightning round. No wrong answers, whatever comes to your mind.And then we're just going to wrap up after that. All right, so what is your. And I feel like you touched on this, but what is your personal mantra, words that you live by?

I'm strong, I'm powerful. I'm amazing.

Oh, well, that answered the other question about three words that describe you as a Kadara woman.

There you go.

I love it, I love it, I love it. We can use it twice. What matters the most to you?

Freedom.

I like that. And your greatest fear?

To not have freedom.

I can see that.

I don't know. I don't like to live by fear, to be honest. So even that question it does. Is not comfortable for me. I don't want that feels restrictive.And I don't want to be contained by fear. Fear holds you back. Right? So.

Right, right.

It's hard. Like, you know, fear can propel you forward, it can hold you back, you know, and a healthy dose of fear. But I don't want to be governed by that.I don't want fear to be a process in my decision making. Right.

Oh, I like that.

What is the last thing you learned? This should be good because you're building something right now.

Financial models. Gosh.

That'S fun.

That's fun.

But you have a partner, right? So hopefully you can share the load. Do you have a favorite book, a quote that has influenced you to become the woman that you are today?

No, but I, I think there's one quote that the way we do anything is the way we do everything. That stands out a lot to me. And I heard that. I don't actually even know who said that, but I was like, this is, this is brilliant.

Is that you?

That's a good one actually. I like that quote. I love quotes. All right. And then if you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself in your 20s?

Foreign. It's not that deep.

I could relate to that. It's not that deep, but I feel like I'm still telling myself that now.

Yeah, it's not that deep. Just. Yeah, you're great. I'd go and be like, you're great. You're just, you're great.

Keep going.

Yeah, yeah, you're great.

I love that. And what would you consider your greatest achievement to date?

My three babies.

Oh, how old are they now?

They are, they are 12, 10, and 9. Oh, they're so impressive. Honestly, they're so impressive. They're so impressive. Yeah, motherhood is, is just an eye boggling, challenging, amazing.Just journey. But there, I think, yeah, for them, I, yeah, they're impressive. I'm just in awe with the humans that they are. They're teaching me.They're constantly humbling me and forcing me to do better.

I love that. I love that. So looking back on your journey, what would you say about destiny and pursuing your purpose?

I just, I would say the universe has my back at all times. At all times. And I've. Everywhere I have been is where I'm supposed to be, truly for the, for the good and the bad.If I didn't experience what I had, I wouldn't be doing the work that I'm doing today. I wouldn't say I wouldn't be doing it because who knows what the path is. But as a result of my experiences, this has led me to walk this path.And as a result, I have, you know, I'm surrounded by women. It's no coincidence I'm raising three women. That's another thing as well. So I just feel like the universe is.I'm divinely guided and yeah, it has my back and it keeps on giving.

So on that note, what do you think about destiny then? How would you talk about destiny?

What do I think about destiny? I just think that you're guided by purpose and so the universe is conspiring for whatever it is that you're giving energy to along the way. Right.And so if that's destiny, then yeah, it's not like this is in the stars and this is exactly how it should be.But I think, you know, if you're not learning the lessons, then the universe will, you know, God stays reminding you until you do learn the lessons and you figuring stuff out which then leads you to it's the path unfolding.

Good, good. Well, thank you so much. This was, this was fun. This was great. How do you feel?

I feel great. I feel great. I'm always grateful to talk with inspiring humans, so it's been gorgeous to speak with you as well.Thank you for holding space and listening.

Oh, no, you are amazing and I appreciate your time and thank you so much for being with us today.

Thank you. Thank you.

Well, that's a wrap for our conversation with the incredible Leslie Psaki. It's empowering to hear Leslie remind us not to overthink the challenges we face.A journey from champion boxer to social entrepreneur shows us that sometimes our greatest pain can lead us to the most meaningful purpose. And I love what she shared about movement being non negotiable for mental well being.It's such a simple but profound truth that our bodies can be vehicles for healing when we give them the right tools and skills, space.So whether you're working through your own trauma, trying to balance motherhood with entrepreneurship, or just simply looking to reconnect with your power, I hope this conversation gave you some practical inspiration for your own path forward. And if you enjoyed this episode, please share with someone you think needs to hear this.And don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any upcoming conversations with remarkable African women across the globe. And so until next time, this is Lala reminding you that your Katara moment of clarity may have already happened. And all you need to do is embrace it.